EU looks East, proposes new partnership to the Eastern countries

[plarq]

Shh, that's supposed to be a secret!

You're sentenced to jail by Husak.

 

[Snorrius]

Emm Estonia has one of the biggest hi-tech sectors of the new EU members. It is a leader in e-government. They are by no means backwards.

One of the biggest hi-tech sectors of the new EU members, huh? Why do not you say they ahead of every country in Europe which name starts from "E" and ends with "a"?

 

[plarq]

One of the biggest hi-tech sectors of the new EU members, huh? Why do not you say they ahead of every country in Europe which name starts from "E" and ends with "a"?

Well, more advanced than Russia, if you have to ask that.

You know how advanced Ireland is.

 

[Snorrius]

And so the Russian army tried or tries to solve this anomality ?

They did not suffer much in terms of human losses. But their leader had to endure inhuman tortures - he had to eat neckties!

 

[plarq]

They did not suffer much in terms of human losses. But their leader had to endure inhuman tortures - he had to eat neckties!

Why? You can't get him to trials?

 

[Snorrius]

Well, more advanced than Russia, if you have to ask that.

You can not compare Estonia and Russia - they are too different in size. But we can try to compare Estonia and Moscow in hi-tech. What Estonia have to boast except e-government?

 

[RedRalph]

Says our resident expert, who's currently holding the record in being wrong most of the time

Russia is clearly trying to keep influence in these countries. If the EU succeeds and draws them to its orbit, it will be a blow to Russian policy of secure "near abroad" (secure in Russian dictionary = Kremlin controlled).

As for the money, it's nothing EU can't handle. It is wasting 100x more money in agriculture, so few hundred millions euros more don't really make a difference. Of course you ignored the part, that most of the cooperation will be focused on removing the barriers to trade and providing EU assistance to reform government policies.

Time will tell. but you do have a long track record of saying everything that happens on Earth is bad for Russia... I honestly dont see this as making any huge difference.

 

[plarq]

You can not compare Estonia and Russia - they are too different in size. But we can try to compare Estonia and Moscow in hi-tech. What Estonia have to boast except e-government?

I don't do research, I only read data, and data lie.

So sorry, you can still believe that Russia is much more advanced than former Warsaw pact "failed states", no one bothers really.

 

[Snorrius]

I don't do research, I only read data, and data lie.

So you can not backup your words and just write random words by means of keyboard?

So sorry, you can still believe that Russia is much more advanced than former Warsaw pact "failed states", no one bothers really.

Yeah.. So sorry, you can still believe that former Warsaw pact "failed states" are much more advanced than Russia, no one bothers really .

 

[Snorrius]

Time will tell. but you do have a long track record of saying everything that happens on Earth is bad for Russia... I honestly dont see this as making any huge difference.

Am I mistaken or Winner looks like someone obsessed with Russia?

 

[plarq]

So you can not backup your words and just write random words by means of keyboard?


Yeah.. So sorry, you can still believe that former Warsaw pact "failed states" are much more advanced than Russia, no one bothers really .

Well, there're some states more backward than Russia: Belarus, Ukraine, Armenia, Azerbajian, and all Georgia, including your friend states. But I can't see Poland and Hungary more backward than Russia.

 

[RedRalph]

Am I mistaken or Winner looks like someone obsessed with Russia?

Its funny, no one talks as much about Russia as me and Winner, two non-Russians. The difference is, I tend to keep my Russophilia to Russian-related threads, he finds ways to bring his Russophobia into ones about the EU, Latvian legal system, etc etc.

 

[plarq]

Am I mistaken or Winner looks like someone obsessed with Russia?

Winner is notoriously anti-Russia, yet he doesn't confess, and claims that he has good will of Slavic brothers in the east, had Russia democratize and be more friendly toward European states.

 

[Shekwan]

Is it just me or are practically none of these countries even important to Russia? Ukraine is, sure. Georgia is gone anyway. Armernia is fairly pro-Russia, but hardly of any serious imporrtance. Moldova hates Russia anyway. Belarus has been offered nothing, and wont be as long as Lukashenko is still around, which looks like it will be for a while. So what exactly is going to change now? also I'm pretty skeptical about how much money the likes of france, Germany and the UK are going to put up to modernise countries like Azerbaijan when their own economies are barely treading water. Publicity stunt, nothing more.

I've got to disagree with you there Ralph. If these are the countries that Russia doesn't give a damn about then what countries are important to them? After all they are all immediate neighbours some with significant Russian populations, one of which they cared enough about to send a lot of troops to not so long ago.

It's true though that this plan will only be successful if the EU states pony up the cash but that's true for any plan and I don't see why you can condemn it simply because of that. They wouldn't announce something like this if they didn't have some sort of way to finance it amidst the economic crisis.

 

[Yeekim]

It is rather funny but Estonia reached its heights only being within Russian Empire or USSR. Before Russian Empire Estonians even could not get higher education in Tartu Univercity and during their independences they soon become backyards of Europe. Why is that I wonder?

I actually agree that the period between Northern War and First World War, during which Estonia was part of Russian Empire, was generally favorable and is usually recalled as such, for following reasons:
1)It was mostly time of peace, enabling us to work and prosper. (Let's drop the matter of cruelty of conquest for now: 3/5 of population lost; Sheremetyev reported to Peter that most places in Estonia have been so thoroughly destroyed they only exist on maps).
2)Baltic provinces enjoyed very large autonomy and quickly became one of the richest and most progressive part of Russian empire. May have been something to do with local nobility, which remained predominantly German.
3)Russia did not attempt to colonize us (in 1914, the % of Russians in Estonia was ~2% - mostly raskolniks who had escaped here from religious persecution in Russia; later number of "white" refugees also stayed).Also, attempts of russification started relatively late and thus did not leave too harsh impact.

Sad thing is, after 80 years of Soviet terror, including national sport called "destroying the intellectuals", which has resulted in people painting icons of Stalin, today's Russia is nothing any sane person would want to be part of. Including majority of our own leftover Soviet colonists.

The last part may be caused by the fact, that as of 2007, Estonia's GDP per capita was 1,5 times as large as that of Russia. So what exactly makes us so "backyard"?

Also, I could not help to notice you consistently ignored my questions in the Latvia thread the other day. Was I being to uncomfortable?

 

[Yeekim]

They were between Russia and China. I will not claim Russian Empire's policies were saint but almost every ethnicity within Russian Empire and USSR who desired to hold its identity was able to it, some (like Georgians and Chechens) were able to grow their population significantly.

Chechens? During what period? After the 1944 deportation cost them quarter of population?

 

[RedRalph]

I've got to disagree with you there Ralph. If these are the countries that Russia doesn't give a damn about then what countries are important to them? After all they are all immediate neighbours some with significant Russian populations, one of which they cared enough about to send a lot of troops to not so long ago.

Well, Ukraine is a defnite, obviously. but the rest? Moldova hates Russia. Georgia hates Russia. the EU courting them is of no consequence to Russia because there is no prospect whatsoever of them being friendly towards Russia anyway. Azerbaijan... well, yeah, on balance Russia probably would prefer them not to be too cozy with the EU, but I doubt Medvedev is losing sleep. Armemia wont ever join the EU IMO. Russia cares more about central Asia, its relationship with China than any of these countreis bar Ukraine.

It's true though that this plan will only be successful if the EU states pony up the cash but that's true for any plan and I don't see why you can condemn it simply because of that. They wouldn't announce something like this if they didn't have some sort of way to finance it amidst the economic crisis.

They would if they wanted to show people they can have a strong and common foreign policy and they can stand up to Russia though, wouldnt they?

 

[Yeekim]

You can not compare Estonia and Russia - they are too different in size. But we can try to compare Estonia and Moscow in hi-tech. What Estonia have to boast except e-government?

Skype?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skype
Tallinn being considered as 2nd city with most economical potential by Financial Times? EDIT: In Europe, obviously.
http://www.propertysecrets.net/blog...d_how_does_the_cee_region_rank_/post-215.html
And it is not just "e-government" either...
http://dsc.discovery.com/technology/tech-10/wireless-cities-top.html
...hey, where is Moscow in that last list?

EDIT: Nah, not to leave impression that wireless coverage is limited to Tallinn:
http://www.kou.ee/index.php?id=100&L=1

 

[RedRalph]

Skype?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skype
Tallinn being considered as 2nd city with most economical potential by Financial Times?
http://www.propertysecrets.net/blog...d_how_does_the_cee_region_rank_/post-215.html
And it is not just "e-government" either...
http://dsc.discovery.com/technology/tech-10/wireless-cities-top.html
...hey, where is Moscow in that last list?

Still, which country would you rather rule?

 

[Shekwan]

Well, Ukraine is a defnite, obviously. but the rest? Moldova hates Russia. Georgia hates Russia. the EU courting them is of no consequence to Russia because there is no prospect whatsoever of them being friendly towards Russia anyway. Azerbaijan... well, yeah, on balance Russia probably would prefer them not to be too cozy with the EU, but I doubt Medvedev is losing sleep. Armemia wont ever join the EU IMO. Russia cares more about central Asia, its relationship with China than any of these countreis bar Ukraine.

Yes I would agree with you that they shouldn't care but this is Russia after all an they still have that imperialist streak and a desire to control the affairs of their neighbouring countries. Also Ukraine is a big exception to your point - perhaps the whole aim of this plan is to bring the Ukraine further into the EU fold and those other states have been added into the scheme because they are so anti Russian to begin with.

They would if they wanted to show people they can have a strong and common foreign policy and they can stand up to Russia though, wouldnt they?

Yeah this is clearly the plan but the only way soft power can actually become useful as tool for the EU is if they follow through with their plans. Empty rhetoric will work for states like the US who can back themselves up with their hard power, but the EU can't afford to do that. They will lose a lot of credibility if this fails and thats why I don't think it's just them running there mouth to put on a good show.