EU looks East, proposes new partnership to the Eastern countries

[plarq]

Yeah, winner's anti-Russian sentiment is far from the most objectionable or even crazy thing about him.

Well, I think Winner is saner than Snorrius and red elk, and at the level of Gelion. (Though Gelion seems to move a bit down the road)

 

[Snorrius]

Well, I think Winner is saner than Snorrius

plarq, I love you too .

 

[Snorrius]

And you really are fooling yourself if you think the Finns have forgotten anything.

They're just terribly soft spoke towards Russia, just like thy were towards the Soviet Union, out of fear, while being armed to the teeth. Every nation in western Europe downsized their cold war invasion defence beginning with the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Except the Finns. Much too risky with Russia for a neighbour in their opinion.

I am not fooling myself. What you said just makes my point stronger - this is indeed sane position. If you think your neighbour is dangerous - be cautious and keep your military in shape. At the other side, why not do business if it proves to be profitable for both parties? That's normal, sane, pragmatic position. Finns are to be respected. Compare it it Baltics' - whining, whimping, crying, but no any real action. Baltics' are not to be respected .

 

[plarq]

Respect = Winter War
and Finns paid respect back.

 

[Snorrius]

Respect = Winter War
and Finns paid respect back.

What you said is demagogical technique used when one feel he can not argue with superior opponent, but it is indeed hypotized that Stalin felt real respect towards Finns after Winter War.

 

[Arwon]

I know English isn't your first language, and I don't like to make fun of people for that.

But still, what?

 

[Snorrius]

I know English isn't your first language, and I don't like to make fun of people for that.

But still, what?

I meant that plarq could not compete with superior opponent, i.e. he ran out of arguments, so he used simple, primitive tactics to divert topic.

P.S. I feel sorry for English language. It have become world's lingua franca, and because of it millions of God-knows-what-blabbering people with poor English ran for English-speaking forums .

 

[Winner]

Thanks darling.

It's a bit ironic though, that on the subject of the EU reaching out to Russia, the Central European reacted that it was impossible due to Russia and the Russian reacted that it was impossible due to the US. Fingerpointing gets so much done doesn't it?

Speaking of which, nobody is a saint. West Europeans usually point their finger at the new EU member countries blaming them of undermining their profitable trade relations with Russia, which worked so well when those pesky post-commies didn't have a say And yeah, they also blame the U.S. for everything - old Cold war habits die hard, right?

I merely corrected your idealism Russia is really in no shape to stabilize its relations with the EU. Actually, Russia often acts as a catalyst of European integration.

(now a smile begins to appear on Ralphs face: "Ha! I got him! That's not what he's been saying before!". To pre-empt another misunderstanding: )

Russia often tries to set the EU members against each other, to paraphrase sir Humphrey: British against the French, French against the Germans, Germans against the Poles etc. Since their attempts are usually fairly obvious, they lead to ever stronger union of European countries.

For example, the talk about common energy policy began after that Russian stunt with cutting gas supplies to Ukraine. The war in Georgia gave Europeans another reason to strengthen their own common foreign policy. Russian bullying in Eastern Europe makes the EU offer a helping hand to these countries.

So, perhaps I should thank them for what they're doing

 

[Winner]

I can not understand why you hate winner so much for his views on Russia, they are mostly correct and i've personally seen real anti-russians in Poland and elsewhere, and winner is NOWHERE near that level. You can tell because most of these anti-russians have no brain, while winner clearly does. From my point of view, you (RRW) don't even listen to what Winner has to say, but just assume that it's something anti-russian, and just rant about what Winner being anti-Russian. I've noticed this for a very long time now, and i'm sure others have as well, and honestly it's getting kind of annoying or hilarious depending on what the topic is.

/lurker out

Couldn't have said it better, thanks

 

[Winner]

BTW this whole thing is a joke. They're not getting into NATO and they're not getting into the EU so they got offered membership in a symbolic organization as a parting gift. This is just like Clinton's "Partnership for Peace" organization. Never heard of it? There is a reason.

These were probably the most spelled words here in the 1990s PfP was far from being symbolic, it offered the participants cooperation and help, which actually allowed most of them to join NATO few years laters.

So, it wasn't really a huge disaster, but a huge success.

This Eastern Partnership might be another success. Of course, it would take much longer to fully implement it (it's not only about the military, so the reforms will take longer time), perhaps decades. But for relatively few costs (slightly worsened relations Russia, some money, some more bureaucracy), it offers huge potential gains (stabilization and democratization of a large region, mutually profitable trade relations, fewer autocratic allies for Russia and finally, a possibility of another expansion to the East in the future).

Of course I understand that Americans are inherently sceptical to this kind of things.

 

[Yeekim]

Baltics mistake is that they are too much in the past. Take Finns for example - they did not get their independence for free, they bought it with own blood, but Finland did not whine for eternity about how bad USSR is, and why it should give them oil and gas for free, and why it should pay zillions American dollar for occupation in the times or Russian empire etc. They took advantage of geography situation and USSR was very important trade partner. Baltics could earn billions if they were smart but instead they were whining and crying and demanding and so on.

Demanding... what? The only demand towards Russia Estonia has made that I can think of, is to return scientific collections of Tartu University, taken to Russia in 1940-s. Russia even did not have that much common courtesy. When have we asked for "free" (wtf?!) oil or gas or "zillions of compensation"? Or anything else?
On the contrary, imho it is Russia, who constantly whines about how Russians are oppressed and "segregated" here, or does not like where we keep our statues. The only problem with local Russians is, that despite all that "oppression" there is no way they want to leave. Especially to Russia.
And I already told in Latvia thread, that business with Russia is nothing but liability. Because you guys are anything but reliable in that respect. Because even your private businessmen are so afraid of goverment, that when Kremlin say "Estonians/Latvians refused to kiss our ass again, stop making deals with them and screw any contract you had" - they will. Business is business and politics are politics. That should be kept separate. Well, you don't. And everybody knows that.

Another Baltics problem is that they constantly talking about how they are going to be occupied. Well, I feel your pain guy, but hell, why are you doing nothing? You became part of NATO but you did not lift a finger to secure err your security? Make Baltic military union of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, create army which girls and boys should attend, use Europeans loans not for buying iPods, cars and other fancy staff but for funding military industry and science research! You have not done anything? And you blew all industry Soviet Union gave to you? Then stop whining!
Next is so-called independence. I would understand if you created Baltic Unity and created really independent state using SU legacy but what have you done? You just join EU which would become (if it was not for his dissolution according to my prediction ) federalized state like USA or Russian Empire. You may not stand Russia, that is one case, but do not say you are "independent"

The prime reason for joining both NATO and EU for us, was to secure our independence from Great Khanate of Russia. I understand why you would like it better, if we entered into no alliances and were trying to create "Military Union of Baltics" instead, but to actually present this as a suggestion, is... funny at least. Also, just because you are ignorant about what we have done, does not mean we "have not done anything". I am still waiting for your side of the hi-tech comparison, actually

Now Baltics have no legacy and no future.

Sorry, mate, our legacy goes way beyond that shame on Earth that was called USSR. And our future is certainly not worse than anybody else's.

 

[silver 2039]

All of the Eastern European states owe their very existence to Russia. If not for them they would have quite likely been exterminated by the Nazi's for being inferior Slavs. Eastern Europe was far better off under the USSR than Nazi Germany. The Eastern Europeans should be grateful. Russia also developed much of the heavy industry of these countries at its own expense, provided universal education and health care, as well as housing. Ultimately Eastern Europe benefited from the firm Russian rule and they have their current stability, infrastructure, and development to thank for that. It was a mutually beneficial situation. There was no exploitation.

Its intresting to note that the Eastern European countries owe the vast majority of their development to other countries, superior countries shall we say. Whether it was Austria-Hungary, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, or Russia. Even the Ottoman Empire.

 

[Yeekim]

It it good thing "blinding ignorance" is just a metaphore. Otherwise I would need a lead dog after having read the post above.

 

[silver 2039]

It it good thing "blinding ignorance" is just a metaphore. Otherwise I would need a lead dog after having read the post above.

And you are simply delusional.

 

[Steph]

Ultimately Eastern Europe benefited from the firm Russian rule and they have their current stability, infrastructure, and development to thank for that. It was a mutually beneficial situation. There was no exploitation.

Its intresting to note that the Eastern European countries owe the vast majority of their development to other countries, superior countries shall we say. Whether it was Austria-Hungary, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, or Russia. Even the Ottoman Empire.

Have you ever been to Eastern Europe? Strangely, the people there almost ALL have a strong bad memories of the Russians, and very glad to be rid of them.

 

[Winner]

All of the Eastern European states owe their very existence to Russia. If not for them they would have quite likely been exterminated by the Nazi's for being inferior Slavs. Eastern Europe was far better off under the USSR than Nazi Germany.

Here we go again: an utterly irrelevant and logically flawed black/white comparison based on personal prejudice.

Central and Eastern Europe would have bene much better off, if it hadn't been for both Nazis and Commies. The whole world would have been better. As I explained in another thread, USSR was actively helping the Nazis to achieve their goals until 1941, so it shares the same amount of blame. Without their support, Hitler would have never had the guts to go after Poland facing the risk of war on two fronts from the beginning. USSR was very cooperative in destroying Central European nations, while it democided Eastern Europe on its own (Ukraine could tell - how many people did the good commies kill there in the 1930s? Were it 2 or 3 millions people?).

So, why should anybody be gratefull to the USSR? I am not. We've paid for their "help" with 1/5 of our territory (annexed by USSR after WW2) and 40 years of communist oppression, including one invasion and thousands of dead people.

So, just for the heck of it: India was much better off under British rule. India owes its very existence as a unified nation to the British, who brough civilization to the primitive peoples there, built railroads and the whole infrastructure and stopped the natives from killing each other for sport. You should thank the British for their selfless assistance every minute of every day in your life

 

[Yeekim]

Guys, don't follow my bad example of feeding the troll.

 

[Winner]

Guys, don't follow my bad example of feeding the troll.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. It would be easier if you could kill the troll and be done with it.

 

[RedRalph]

I can not understand why you hate winner so much for his views on Russia, they are mostly correct and i've personally seen real anti-russians in Poland and elsewhere, and winner is NOWHERE near that level. You can tell because most of these anti-russians have no brain, while winner clearly does. From my point of view, you (RRW) don't even listen to what Winner has to say, but just assume that it's something anti-russian, and just rant about what Winner being anti-Russian. I've noticed this for a very long time now, and i'm sure others have as well, and honestly it's getting kind of annoying or hilarious depending on what the topic is.

/lurker out

hmmm, well, its an almost universally held opinion on him, so I dont know why you singled me out. User specific polls arent allowed (Unless Winner started one hmself), but I'm fairly sure I know what the result would be if there was one entitled "Is Winner anti-Russian". To tell the truth, I'm not particularly impressed with the opinions of someone who dosent like Hugo Chavez "Because he gives money to poor people and they only waste it out of stupidity", but I'm glad to know I'm both amusing and irritating you.

 

[Verbose]

I am not fooling myself. What you said just makes my point stronger - this is indeed sane position. If you think your neighbour is dangerous - be cautious and keep your military in shape. At the other side, why not do business if it proves to be profitable for both parties? That's normal, sane, pragmatic position. Finns are to be respected. Compare it it Baltics' - whining, whimping, crying, but no any real action. Baltics' are not to be respected .

So you missed the part where old Soviet infrastructure has cemented a dependancy on Russia for these countries you find more objectionable than the Finns?

The only real difference between the Finns and the Baltics is that the Finns were able to fight the Soviet Union off. Kudos to the Finns, but it still means the Soviet Union keeps screwing with everyone else long after its demise.