EU looks East, proposes new partnership to the Eastern countries

[RedRalph]

Well, you (and Winner) might be right, but I just dont see it. time will tell.

 

[Yeekim]

Still, which country would you rather rule?

I have no aspirations of leading countries. Besides, how is that supposed to be relevant? I was merely asked to compare Estonia and Moscow in hi-tech.

But to give you an answer... e-government would certainly make pesky bureaucracy easier where I am...

 

[RedRalph]

I have no aspirations of leading countries. Besides, how is that supposed to be relevant? I was merely asked to compare Estonia and Moscow in hi-tech.

But to give you an answer... e-government would certainly make pesky bureaucracy easier where I am...

and more vulnerable to Russian cyber-attacks!

BTW, it was just a joke

 

[Yeekim]

and more vulnerable to Russian cyber-attacks!
BTW, it was just a joke

No worries. Although it is hard to tell with you sometimes. After all, we Estonians are also proverbially slow-minded and humorless...
EDIT: ... and we are working on these problems too.
http://i-policy.typepad.com/informationpolicy/2008/05/nato-creates-cy.html

 

[Shekwan]

Well, you (and Winner) might be right, but I just dont see it. time will tell.

I don't really see it the same way he does - as a a kind of an effort to stick it to the Russians; but rather the natural progression of the EU. After all their aim is to promote deomcracy and economic freedom in Europe, so of course more former soviet states ( and Ukraine in particular ) are the next to be invested in.

 

[RedRalph]

I don't really see it the same way he does - as a a kind of an effort to stick it to the Russians; but rather the natural progression of the EU. After all their aim is to promote deomcracy and economic freedom in Europe, so of course more former soviet states ( and Ukraine in particular ) are the next to be invested in.

The thing is, its not either/or. Russia has positive relations with Germany, Italy, Bulgaria, Austria and more or less normal relations with most EU states. It has bad relations with the UK, Poland, the Baltic states (spot the connection between these countries? All are very pro US) and a few others. Ukraine could be in the EU and still maintain very friendly relations with Russia. I think this is what will happen, and same goes for Serbia.

 

[Winner]

One of the biggest hi-tech sectors of the new EU members, huh? Why do not you say they ahead of every country in Europe which name starts from "E" and ends with "a"?

As far as e-government is concerned, they are far ahead of ANY other EU member

 

[Shekwan]

The thing is, its not either/or. Russia has positive relations with Germany, Italy, Bulgaria, Austria and more or less normal relations with most EU states. It has bad relations with the UK, Poland, the Baltic states (spot the connection between these countries? All are very pro US) and a few others. Ukraine could be in the EU and still maintain very friendly relations with Russia. I think this is what will happen, and same goes for Serbia.

I guess we'll have to see how a common EU foreign policy can be created with such differing relations among the member states with Russia. Something will have to be done about the antagonistic relationship the UK in particular has with Russia ( and vice versa ), it's natural for the former soviet states to have poor relations with Russia and I believe that will pass ( Just like Ireland and the UK ) .

 

[Winner]

Am I mistaken or Winner looks like someone obsessed with Russia?

That's funny, me criticizing Russia is called obsession.

You, red elk, Gelion and others are flooding the forum with conspiracy theories, nationalist rambling about how's Russia great, powerful, how the West is about to decline and fall, how the U.S. plan to attack you and so forth.

That's what? Realism? Correct analysis free of any bias?

Sorry, but I am not the one making conclusions based on wishful thinking. I am not obsessed with Russia, I don't care about it most of the time. I am just interested in foreign policy, and we discuss it often, so...

 

[Winner]

The thing is, its not either/or. Russia has positive relations with Germany, Italy, Bulgaria, Austria and more or less normal relations with most EU states. It has bad relations with the UK, Poland, the Baltic states (spot the connection between these countries? All are very pro US) and a few others. Ukraine could be in the EU and still maintain very friendly relations with Russia. I think this is what will happen, and same goes for Serbia.

Italy, Germany and Austria are incidentally also the biggest consumers and importers of Russian natural gas.

Just though I should mention it, when we're looking for secret connections.

Nevertheless, even the most pro-Moscow EU countries are not willing to cave to Russia in Eastern Europe and Caucasus. EU is clearly willing to compete for influence there. It's not nearly as confrontational as it could be, but it's far from being weak and divided.

 

[philippe]

I found Cato the Elder's post the best and most in line with my view on this stance in this thread.

 

[Snorrius]

Sad thing is, after 80 years of Soviet terror, including national sport called "destroying the intellectuals", which has resulted in people painting icons of Stalin, today's Russia is nothing any sane person would want to be part of. Including majority of our own leftover Soviet colonists.

You are overstimating when talking about "80 year of Soviet terror". The most hard time for USSR was under Stalin when internal terror was conjugated with World War. Years after him was more or less quiet and relaxed. Though I agree that USSR will still haunt Russia's image for some time.

Baltics mistake is that they are too much in the past. Take Finns for example - they did not get their independence for free, they bought it with own blood, but Finland did not whine for eternity about how bad USSR is, and why it should give them oil and gas for free, and why it should pay zillions American dollar for occupation in the times or Russian empire etc. They took advantage of geography situation and USSR was very important trade partner. Baltics could earn billions if they were smart but instead they were whining and crying and demanding and so on.

Another Baltics problem is that they constantly talking about how they are going to be occupied. Well, I feel your pain guy, but hell, why are you doing nothing? You became part of NATO but you did not lift a finger to secure err your security? Make Baltic military union of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, create army which girls and boys should attend, use Europeans loans not for buying iPods, cars and other fancy staff but for funding military industry and science research! You have not done anything? And you blew all industry Soviet Union gave to you? Then stop whining!

Next is so-called independence. I would understand if you created Baltic Unity and created really independent state using SU legacy but what have you done? You just join EU which would become (if it was not for his dissolution according to my prediction ) federalized state like USA or Russian Empire. You may not stand Russia, that is one case, but do not say you are "independent"

The last part may be caused by the fact, that as of 2007, Estonia's GDP per capita was 1,5 times as large as that of Russia. So what exactly makes us so "backyard"?

I meant backyard of Europe. And we will see in 2009-2010 how good this GDP is, after sources of cheap loans have dried up. You have lived well short time in expanse of your Soviet legacy and your future. Now Baltics have no legacy and no future.

Also, I could not help to notice you consistently ignored my questions in the Latvia thread the other day. Was I being to uncomfortable?

Probably I was already off forums, I will check them.

 

[Snorrius]

Chechens? During what period? After the 1944 deportation cost them quarter of population?

Most of people returned from the Siberia eventually. And when Chechnya become de-facto independent after first Chechen war a lot of its citizens moved to Russia voluntarily because their leaders were good at war but failed even to keep sewerage working in the capital...

 

[Cato the Elder]

I found Cato the Elder's post the best and most in line with my view on this stance in this thread.

Thanks darling.

It's a bit ironic though, that on the subject of the EU reaching out to Russia, the Central European reacted that it was impossible due to Russia and the Russian reacted that it was impossible due to the US. Fingerpointing gets so much done doesn't it?

 

[Mowque]

Wait, am i getting the idea that some people think USSR rule was good for Eastern Europe? wow...but back to the OP

IF i read the article right, i think this is a good move and not because i want to 'corral' Russia. Anytime richer countries get more (free-market) contacts with poorer nations, the poorer nations have a chance to do well. (Excluding Africa in this, they always seems to get the raw deal)

 

[Rossiya]

Finally, Poland and the Czech Republic shall be integrated!

 

[TheLastOne36]

Its funny, no one talks as much about Russia as me and Winner, two non-Russians. The difference is, I tend to keep my Russophilia to Russian-related threads, he finds ways to bring his Russophobia into ones about the EU, Latvian legal system, etc etc.

Winner is notoriously anti-Russia, yet he doesn't confess, and claims that he has good will of Slavic brothers in the east, had Russia democratize and be more friendly toward European states.

I can not understand why you hate winner so much for his views on Russia, they are mostly correct and i've personally seen real anti-russians in Poland and elsewhere, and winner is NOWHERE near that level. You can tell because most of these anti-russians have no brain, while winner clearly does. From my point of view, you (RRW) don't even listen to what Winner has to say, but just assume that it's something anti-russian, and just rant about what Winner being anti-Russian. I've noticed this for a very long time now, and i'm sure others have as well, and honestly it's getting kind of annoying or hilarious depending on what the topic is.

/lurker out

 

[Verbose]

Baltics mistake is that they are too much in the past. Take Finns for example - they did not get their independence for free, they bought it with own blood, but Finland did not whine for eternity about how bad USSR is, and why it should give them oil and gas for free, and why it should pay zillions American dollar for occupation in the times or Russian empire etc. They took advantage of geography situation and USSR was very important trade partner. Baltics could earn billions if they were smart but instead they were whining and crying and demanding and so on.

You really can't spot the effect of Soviet infrastructure still tieing these states to Russia whether they like to or not, making them structurally dependant on Russia, whether they like it or not?

Finland is out of it simply because it had the great good fortune of never being part of the Soviet Union. And that wasn't for want of the Soviets trying.

And you really are fooling yourself if you think the Finns have forgotten anything.

They're just terribly soft spoke towards Russia, just like thy were towards the Soviet Union, out of fear, while being armed to the teeth. Every nation in western Europe downsized their cold war invasion defence beginning with the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Except the Finns. Much too risky with Russia for a neighbour in their opinion.

 

[Oerdin]

BTW this whole thing is a joke. They're not getting into NATO and they're not getting into the EU so they got offered membership in a symbolic organization as a parting gift. This is just like Clinton's "Partnership for Peace" organization. Never heard of it? There is a reason.

 

[Arwon]

Yeah, winner's anti-Russian sentiment is far from the most objectionable or even crazy thing about him.