Fall From Heaven NES

OOC: Printing press for votes? Athenians didn't have printing press, and didn't have paper. Although most of them were definitely litterate. You too are thinking in modern-days standards. You could use something simple, like black pebbles and white pebbles, for a yes/no question. You could also poll everyone in the village and those who agree put a pebble in an urn while others don't. Or the contrary, depending on how you plan to rig the election... And also, Amurites themselves have a somewhat biased voting system if I'm not wrong. So they can't be asking that every vote have the same weight, since they have had some representation issues at home.

This is a good point here. Of course, you're forgetting the fact that the Athenians (and pretty much every republic until the short-lived French Revolutionaries) didn't let everyone vote - only their upper class was allowed that priviledge. Slaves, people who didn't own land, and peasents were ignored - which means that in the Calabim's case, they're already going a giant step beyond the "reasonable" by even bothering to ask the humans anything, since by and large the humans are too poor to meet Athenian, Roman, or even early American standards for the vote. That includes, I note, the Amurites.
 
Of course, you're forgetting the fact that (...) didn't let everyone vote. That includes, I note, the Amurites.
I don't forget it, I pointed it out in fact:
Amurites themselves have a somewhat biased voting system if I'm not wrong. So they can't be asking that every vote have the same weight, since they have had some representation issues at home
However, there is no country, even today, where everyone votes. Children and strangers, for instance, rarely have a right to vote. Which brings the question of what voting system the Amurites advocate, and whether it is the same they use at home.
 
Your wrong about the Athenians. They had a system in which any male citizen could vote on anything if they decided to show up, here's the wiki article
 
Your wrong about the Athenians. They had a system in which any male citizen
No he's right, you're not talking about the same thing: You say 'mal'e' (all females are out), and 'citizen', so it's definitely not all. Very few Athenians were (most were slaves or meteques (sp?)), and citizenship was hard to acquire (which may be the reason why Herodotus left Athens). And children wouldn't vote either. What are the corresponding criteria for Amurites or Calabim? Males only? Citizens? Which caste? Do strangers have the right to vote? Are slaves, kraltavoi strangers? Are condemned criminals allowed to vote? And so forth.
 
Since this has all been OOC, i won't comment on the discussion. It is interesting however and i LOVE the history lesson. The classic era is my favorite part of history.
 
Immac I'm expecting you too comment on this discussion by offering a more reasonable demand :p. All of these points are very relevant to the Amurite-Calabim negotiations.
 
Our demands remain unchanged. We don't think its unreasonable to poll your population. Remember, we aren't trying to determine policy or laws, only determine if the population are for or against some form of domestic represenation in government. We don't think this demand is unreasonable in the least.

Also, we thought you would confer with your consel and determine if they would even be willing to perform any sort of poll.

Amurite senate first speaker, Rodrick Bellisam
 
No he's right, you're not talking about the same thing: You say 'mal'e' (all females are out), and 'citizen', so it's definitely not all. Very few Athenians were (most were slaves or meteques (sp?)), and citizenship was hard to acquire (which may be the reason why Herodotus left Athens). And children wouldn't vote either. What are the corresponding criteria for Amurites or Calabim? Males only? Citizens? Which caste? Do strangers have the right to vote? Are slaves, kraltavoi strangers? Are condemned criminals allowed to vote? And so forth.

Well back in Classical times, that was considered everyone, I mean America was more picky about who could actually decided on who would represent them, when it was formed. That level of openness was unheard of back then and only resurfaced a few hundred years ago.
 
Our demands remain unchanged. We don't think its unreasonable to poll your population. Remember, we aren't trying to determine policy or laws, only determine if the population are for or against some form of domestic represenation in government. We don't think this demand is unreasonable in the least.

Also, we thought you would confer with your consel and determine if they would even be willing to perform any sort of poll.

Amurite senate first speaker, Rodrick Bellisam

We are considering all our options. A mass poll is not one of them.

OOC: What do you mean by ''domestic'' reperesentation?
 
Well back in Classical times, that was considered everyone, I mean America was more picky about who could actually decided on who would represent them, when it was formed. That level of openness was unheard of back then and only resurfaced a few hundred years ago.

That doesn't really make sense. American citizens were allowed to vote - but citizenship was restricted, just as it was for the Athenians. That's a bit of an oversimplification in both cases, but you are basically saying the same thing twice and trying to make it mean two different things.
 
OOC: What do you mean by ''domestic'' reperesentation?

OOC:

King and queen would have final say on all matters relating to foreign affairs (trade, war, etc) but human council would influence (but not have final say in) things like infrastructure development, direction of growth, research... things like that.

Sometimes Jopa tells me the senate wants this X,Y,Z and you would be wise to do them... so i do. I want something like that except the senate is replaced by a counsel of man (human representatives).

The poll would be to determine if this is something they want since you stated its something they don't want. If they vote no, then vampires get final say in all matters. If they vote yes, then you have to consider their voice for all domestic matters.

EDIT
IC
The decadent King and Queen of the incestious Calabim nobility, tyrants, silencers of the voice of man, and thieves of souls


Don't bother trying to negotiate further. The days of oppression and tyranny are over.
We are done negotiating. you know our views- the choice is yours. Only your actions will dictate our response.


We know that you claim you can weather the storm of the embargo indefinately, but we are ready to test that ascertion.

Rodrick Bellisam, first speaker of the amurite senate
 
Sometimes Jopa tells me the senate wants this X,Y,Z and you would be wise to do them... so i do. I want something like that except the senate is replaced by a counsel of man (human representatives).

That just seems... inefficient, somehow. I much prefer doing whatever I want as a monarch. Not that I'm doing bad for my people, but I can probably take a better long view of things than my citizens can.
 
OOC: Would it be possible to have some answer by the Kuriotates new government about the peace proposals? It will be very hard to give orders this week if we don't start talking about peace conditions or continued war.
 
Hey everybody, interesting discussion!

First off, Immac, you can write whatever you want to and I definitely wont give any penalty :) Though, I can't guarantee that story effect will actually happen, if you get my meaning - you could write a brilliant story about conquest of all three Calabim cities and no matter how great that story could be, It couldn't really affect gameplay :) Same would go for crucial internal issue, I do not know what you have in mind however so I encourage you to go ahead :)


About the democracy, the Amurite Senate before the Immac came along was a body in which only rich people who passed the income census, i.e. those paying over 500 golden pieces in tax per year (I'm turning a blind eye on the fact that no one knows Taxation tech ;)) could vote and be voted for. That included about 20% of the population, mainly mages, headmasters, priests, high ranking commanders and merchants. Occasionally some hardworking craftsmen or guildmaster came along, if he managed to expand business and get few apprentices, but that was it. There was no real aristocracy, especially no titles passed on by inheritance, but some mages got many acres of fields with peasants, so they could pull back from studies and act as aristocracy.

New law that allowed everyone to vote still didn't bring equality, it merely expanded Senate by 21 member (and it had like 78 at the time?) who were to be picked from the villages and cities by universal suffrage. It still meant that rich held like 3/4 of Senator places, and then voted again for local representatives, but peasants did feel relieved and at least their voice could be heard in the Cevedes Senate.

I think that elections would be like Roman or Greek ones, no one says that they need to be anonymous (that certainly makes it easier to track frauds), can be done on clay tiles instead of paper, cast into big jars.. get creative. They certainly need not to be perfect.
 
@LDiC I'm controlling Kurios until the update, please contact me for peace details.

Addendum: Although not perfect, elections still allow that, if masses of people want less taxes on grain, cheaper tools etc. and group themselves in Farmers Party, then farmer's party IS going to get few seats in the Senate and their problems would be heard. Similarly people could voice out their opinions on war, alliance etc.
 
Great- will post story soon.
Part one anyway.
 
Nations of Erebus!

Who is this madman? You are the great powers of the world, yet you follow this fool and his corrupt senate like lost dogs, ignoring sense and reason! Surely you can see that his arrogant demands are not only impractical and foolish, but also completely hypocritical? He demands that I give each and every man, woman and child in The Calabim the right to vote, to have equal rights to the Vampiric Nobility who have earned their place on the Council through great achivements and contributions to the success of our Nation! Why? Surely the great successes of our Nation deserve the influence and power our government gives them? Just as the Khazad system gives a voting bias to the Rich, we give greater power to the people of our nation that are truly deserving and capable of serving the Government of our Nation!

The Amurites demand that we allow all of the following:

- Slaves
- Kraltavoi scum
- Criminals
- Fools
- The mentally ill
- Children
- Good-for-nothing leeches of society
- The Lazy
- The illiterate
- The Uneducated
- The Peasantry
- Liars
- Immigrants
- Sinners
- The homeless
- the Poor

to vote in government, and have an equal number of votes to the Nobility, Moroi and other successful, intelligent and honourable people, whilst, in the Amurite lands, this kind of people have far, far greater influence over the government then the aforementioned undeserving groups of people I have listed.

He claims that he must have agents to ensure this ficticious poll of his is not rigged or biased, yet does anyone watch over the AMurite Elections? Does anyone prevent their polls from being rigged? How do we know that this nation, that claims to be so democratic, really, truly is? Their government is a corrupt, bribe-happy mess and their leaders are not fit to rule! Such could not be more obvious!

To subject One's nation to such stupidity would be folly of the highest degree. They enforce these demands upon us, not to help our humans, who live fine and happy lives without the careless Amurititian intervention which has lead to nothing but misery and devastation for my people. The Amurite Crusaders burn and loot their homes, and condemn them to poverty by closing off our allies and blockading our ports, yet they claim to be helping them! Their lies are outrageous! They care nothing for the Calabim people, but enforce this foolery upon us to weaken us, so that they may have a better grip upon the affairs of Erebus. So that their corrupt, idiotic and power hungry leaders may fill their own pockets with the gold of their people and of mine!

They have insulted the Government and peasantry of our nation again and again, holding us by the throat and attempting to enforce their stupidity upon us. It makes you wonder just which nation will be next? Who will be their next target for embracing the Amurite ways of life? It is blindingly obvious that this ''Council of Man'' is intended as nothing more then a tool for the Amurites to gain greater control over our nation, afterall the men who sit upon it will owe their very positions to the Amurite Dictators (sorry, Senators), and will surely be more then happy to show their gratitude by doing whatever the Amurites demand of them. Which of you will be next to accept Amurite control? Who amongst you would willfully give up your country, and your people, to these monsters!? Yet you stand with the Amurites, demanding I give up mine?

They have not even bothered to listen to our counter arguements or take into account the Calabim culture and demographics. For example, I bet no one in their Senate knows that the literacy rate of Calabim commoners is less then 5%, whereas a vast percentage of the Amurite population is taught to read as children. They do not care that it is our very culture to allow our betters to rule us, call it a Meritocracy if you like, and does not follow the Amurite tradition of giving leadership to whoever can pay the biggest bribes, or give the harshest threats. This fact is clear, considering the underhand and dishonourable methods they chose to turn our allies and friends against us! Yet they claim to embrace and symbolise equality and fairness, Erebus open your eyes!

Any educated man could tell you that in a Nation where such a low percentage of humans are educated that democracy is doomed to failure, doomed to send the nation into poverty and instability, and any man that has visited our great Nation and stayed with our people could tell you that democracy would never work amongst such people, where each looks up to their betters to make their decisions for them, and people are far more concerned with the nature of the harvest and the price of fish then the Actions of Government, something that few of them understand, and even fewer display any interest in.

Any educated man could tell you that the Amurite's very actions and disinterest in the Just counter-arguements and specific circumstances in which they are meddling is a testament to how ineffective and ridiculous their type of government is, when ran in a human nation. Their disregard for the fact that the very idea of a human democracy is an insult to any true follower of the Natural Order, human or Vampire, is a clear demonstration of their misplaced self-righteousness.

Nations of Erebus, listen to reason! Strip away their fat pay packets and insulting demonstrations and you will see that the Amurites are nothing but ignorant, power hungry fools, and their interests in the Calabim have nothing to do with Ethics or Morals, but everything to do with an increase in illegitimate power and control for the Amurite Nation over the other, better Empires of the world.

Please, for the good of us all, heed these words.

Sincerely,

King Agron the Successor, The Calabim
 
The Coup:
Turn 16: An Opportunity
Part One: A Heated Session in Senate Chambers


Most of the senators were only too eager to get through the mostly boring and uninteresting issues brought before the senate that morning. All were impatient to tackle the major issue troubling their constituents and the senate itself: the Calabim embargo.

Finally, after several minor issues had been dealt with, first speaker Rodrick Bellisam cleared his throat and bellowed, “That concludes the issue of the Lutsel’ke land amendments. Let us turn our attention to the issue of the Calabim embargo.” He would have continued except that the previously near-silent marble hall was suddenly filled with raucous voices and arguments all struggling to be heard amongst the rest.

This continued for some time as the first speaker allowed his fellow senators to discuss the issue before finally demanding silence, “The floor recognizes senator Karem Gurek, former minister of trade and current representative of the Nimarail merchant’s guild”

With an encouraging nod from his friend and the current minister of lands, Yilderum Camil, the slimly built senator dressed in a finely embroidered Grigori silk sheesh stepped to the podium. “Fellow senators, colleges, friends, the issue of the Calabim embargo is a complex one and certainly of grave concern and seriousness for those present today.” Heads nodded throughout the audience. The merchant and former trade minister was well liked and his words were heard with respect by most. Many held that it was his propositions and ideas that dragged the Amurites from the wretched poverty of the civil war to the relatively prosperous nation it was today and his words held weight not just amongst his fellow merchants but throughout the noble houses and among the academics. The guilds often followed his lead and there were even a sizeable minority amongst the farmers and craftsmen who considered his voice to be that of wisdom and prosperity. Clearing his throat, he pronounced, “The embargo is unpopular amongst our foreign allies, has cost us technology and gold to establish and doesn’t seem to be producing the results we had hoped for.” Amongst the merchants and even amongst some of the Farmer’s party there were nods and muted agreement. “I propose that we end the embargo now and recuperate what financial gains there are to be won before this project drains our treasuries.”

The next to speak was Heymon Greytooth, a Khazad dwarf representing the jewellers and jewellery merchants. The Khazad, though a small population amongst the Amurites, held more than their share of seats on the senate by virtue of their wealth and mercantile ingenuity. His voice was sure and calm, “Not all merchants would agree with you fellow senator. Despite your years of experience, we dwarves have been trading and hoarding wealth for longer then you can remember and we know that trade and economics are not only about generation of trade, but about competition and struggle for wealth and resources. While the embargo has hardly affected us, indeed with our new trading fleets, trade is better then ever, the embargo is strangling our competition and securing routes and resources for our own merchants. This is one senator who will vote to maintain the embargo.” The dwarf sat down to much less muted agreement and more emphatic nods, most of them coming from the Sunrise League, the Mithril Order and the Religious senators.

Again, Rodrick Bellisam took the podium, “Our next speaker is Hüdaverdi Uzunçarsili, senator and grand patriarch of the Order of Junil.” A hush fell over the senators as the highly respected and often feared old man took the podium.

“Fellow senators,” he began, in a characteristic rasping voice acquired, it was said, in the civil war from demonic poison gas, “We know that you are worried about representation and the role of man and vampire in government…”

“Here! Here!” many of the senators and especially the supporter of Yilderum Camil were heard to say.

Senator Uzunçarsili continued, “and we know you are worried about your pocket books and piles of gold, but few of you are speaking today of something greater. I would like to remind you of the place of the immortal soul in all this. You’ve heard my arguments before: a vampire steals the soul of its victim. That soul never reaches Junil, regardless of how devout the victim was. The souls of the followers of other gods never see their gods’ heavens either. And do you think that a subservient soul of Aeron who is consumed goes to Aeron’s vault to live in paradise? Think again!!! This is the god of violence and pain, rage and base desires. Their subservience in life continues in the afterlife. The soul is doomed to suffer for all eternity. You know how the order-abiding senators will vote. The embargo continues. Nay, it tightens! This is our voice, our vote!”

Patriarch Hüdaverdi Uzunçarsili had not relinquished the podium when another priestly senator, Soner Çölasan, a younger priest only recently appointed to represent the Nimarail abbey jumped up, intensity and determination animating his angry frame and flashing in his dark eyes. “Vote?” he shouted. “Why should we vote? We let these heathens and unbelievers decide for us?” he pointed at the ranks of senators in a sweeping gesture that lingered just a little longer on the Radical academics. “These blasphemers? Our principles and our code are diluted and tarnished at every turn. It took a Khazad scholar to remind us,
"What is your greatest calling?"
"Obediance. Unquestioning obediance".
From chapter 2 of Reflections on the State Cults, by Elder Methyl of the Luonnatar (and FfHpedia)
Crusaders are fanatics who follow orders without questions, not democratic Greeks who elect their leaders and dispute their orders.

“Can you not hear the truth of his words? If a Khazad scholar can determine the truth of Junil’s code, what has blinded you old fools? We must obey. To quibble and make concessions to these agnostics and worse is unacceptable. Would we be like the catamite Grigori who pleasure their pederast vampire lords?” His words were spoken with passion and anger. His face was red (where it could be seen through his sheesh) and he gesticulated wildly. With every word he took a step towards the podium and his master, the patriarch of the Order of Junil, the senator Hüdaverdi Uzunçarsili. With every word he pointed at his master, a sharp stabbing motion who’s sheer intensity caused the older and highly respected man to take a half step back at the unexpected ferocity of the younger priest’s faith and passion.

The moment hung in the air like a poisoned blade in mid-throw. The image bore into the eyes and minds of all the senators present. Never, absolutely never, had a priest of Junil questioned a higher ranking priest. Certainly none had ever questioned the patriarch and certainly none had ever questioned his authority so openly, before so many influential men and women. It was a moment that hung in the senators’ consciousness forever and words that changed the winds of Amurite history.

The patriarch was quick to recover however, and yelled as best as he could in his ruined voice, “Guards! Seize this man and place him under arrest.” With calm and deliberation he spoke directly to the renegade Soner Çölasan. “You will be crucified for this.” These were not figurative threats.

Despite the death sentence, the younger priest was not so easily silenced, “Then I will be martyr for the true believers. Repent for your sacrilege, for having sold the soul of Junil’s code to uphold your precious ‘representation’ and play the puppet to these heathens. I would rather serve a Balseraph jester or even a demon-summoning Caswellan if only they pledged their soul to Junil.” He spoke the last words with dignity and force, speaking clearly from some place deep and clear, and, taking a final giant stride towards the patriarch of the Amurite church of Junil, spoke a simple quiet prayer. Those who were nearby heard his whispered plea, “Great Junil, the law-giver, bless me this day and give me the strength to guide our people to you. Give me the strength to tear down the corruption in your church and set us on the right path. I pledge to you my life and my soul,” with that a white glow formed in his hand and quickly coalesced into a short, wide-bladed sword, glinting with internal light and leaving a trail of sparkling white embers as it formed.

For a moment Patriarch Uzunçarsili was afraid. That Junil should answer this fanatic madman’s prayer scared him and he looked to the guards for help. They were too stunned by the symbolic confrontation to act and too far away to reach him in time. The old priest would have to confront this renegade himself. Hüdaverdi spoke a prayer of his own, “Junil protect me this day and shield me from the blade of this traitorous deserter who dares to defy the Order and the hierocracy.” Unlike Soner Çölasan, his prayer was loud and for all to hear and like the younger priest, his prayer too was answer. A shimmering field of silver formed before the patriarch and coalesced into a shinning steel shield.

Soner Çölasan was undaunted. With a final stride he raised his blade and silently stabbed the older man. The shield of faith exploded before Soner’s stabbing blade and Junil’s anger sunk deeply into the center of the patriarch’s chest. As the patriarch fell, it was as if the god of law himself had spoken to all assembled directly. Junil's people would never been the same.
 
OOC:
@KOL:
very good and persuasive writing.
Awesome.
I love this game!!!!

IC: Then the embargo will continue.
 
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