Ferguson

[Senethro]

Anyway, they need to have the reservations abolished and integrate fully with modern society. Harsh? Yes. Unfortunate? Maybe.

Can't leave the job of ethnic cleansing half finished!

You've gone from weird to threatening.

 

[Domen]

In fact not only the reservations should belong to them (as private or collective property), but also all land which was never formally ceded:

This never formally ceded land includes practically all of Nevada as well as most of Idaho and large chunks of few other states:

 

[Commodore]

Can't leave the job of ethnic cleansing half finished!

You've gone from weird to threatening.

What's wrong with having them integrate into mainstream America? The quality of life on a vast majority of reservations is absolutely abysmal and their tribal governments are hopelessly corrupt. So it seems breaking down the barrier the existence of the reservations create could only serve to improve their lives.

Many Americans don't know that Africa is not a single country!

I know this is probably a joke, but I'm still not going to let it slide (mostly because I'm getting sick of the "it's cool to make fun of the US" trend going around the internet these days).

What evidence do you have to support this assertion? It's okay, I'll wait...

 

[hangman]

What's wrong with having them integrate into mainstream America? The quality of life on a vast majority of reservations is absolutely abysmal and their tribal governments are hopelessly corrupt. So it seems breaking down the barrier the existence of the reservations create could only serve to improve their lives.

You don't see the problem with imposing your will on people without bothering to ask if that's even what they want? Or maybe you just don't care what they want...

 

[Commodore]

You don't see the problem with imposing your will on people without bothering to ask if that's even what they want? Or maybe you just don't care what they want...

It's not about imposing will (at least for me) as much as it is about creating greater unity among populations. I am a huge proponent of taking any measure that creates a more unified humanity until eventually we are united under a single political, social, and economic umbrella.

 

[hangman]

That's nice, but whether your intentions are good isn't really relevant, I think.

 

[sophie]

Many Americans don't know that Africa is not a single country!

That's because "African-American" refers to:

 

[Hygro]

African-American is not a term I hear often anymore. Racial phrasing will always be in flux as long as there's significant racism.

 

[Domen]

Anyway, they need to have the reservations abolished

Bhsup, you are not authorized to break international treaties:

Treaty with the Apache, July 1, 1852:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/apa1852.asp

Treaty with the Apache, Cheyenne, and Arapaho; October 17, 1865:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/apchar65.asp

Treaty with the Cheyenne and Arapaho; October 14, 1865:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/char65.asp

Treaty with the Comanche, Kiowa, and Apache; July 27, 1853:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/cokiap53.asp

Treaty With the Kiowa, Comanche, and Apache; October 21, 1867:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/kicoap67.asp

 

[EgonSpengler]

It's being reported that the U.S. Dept of Justice will shortly release its official report on the Ferguson police department and court system. In addition to unmitigated, undisguised racism and a total contempt for the U.S. Constitution, the investigation found a pattern of emphasizing revenue earned through citations and court fees. They also found emails between officers sharing racist jokes about the President and pregnant black women. Police department or Klan Lodge? Who can tell the difference anymore?


New York Times: Ferguson Police Routinely Violate Rights of Blacks, Justice Dept. Finds

Associated Press: In Ferguson, scathing US report brings pressure for change

BBC: Ferguson police racially biased says US Justice Department

 

[bathsheba666]

I know this is probably a joke, but I'm still not going to let it slide (mostly because I'm getting sick of the "it's cool to make fun of the US" trend going around the internet these days).

One tiny data point:

I used to work for GE, and occasionally went to Rockville Maryland at the HQ, this time for a meeting of worldwide billing staff.

One of my friends/colleagues was of French/Philipine extraction, currently working in Paris.
She had taken advantage of the meeting to fly via the Philipines, for a holiday and family meet up prior to the conference.

In classic team building fashion, we were encouraged to meet a number of our unknown overseas team mates, and soothe the Americans who rarely got a chance to travel to the dangerous out there.

She reported a conversation with a local:

- Hey Hi, how are you, I'm <American name>

Hi, I'm <cute French person>

- Where have you come from ?

I'm from Paris, but I stopped off in the Philipines on the way over.

- OK, Did you drive ?

 

[Gori the Grey]

I was thinking of resurrecting this thread--to give Timsup2nothin some props.

From early on, his position was that this incident shouldn't be analyzed in isolation, but that it was likely a sign that the Fergusson police force had squandered, through bad treatment of minorities, the rapport that a police force must cultivate and maintain with the community it serves.

Tim being Tim, he made these points categorically and emphatically and (and unstintingly ) Some, including me, took the position that we should wait for the various inquiries before making such claims.

Well, now the federal probe has come in, and it indeed shows that the Fergusson police department regularly engaged in racially discriminatory behavior in the ~5 years leading up to this incident. I think we "let's wait for the inquiry" folks should therefore be explicit in acknowledging the validity and accuracy of Tim's early framing of this incident.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I was thinking of resurrecting this thread--to give Timsup2nothin some props.

From early on, his position was that this incident shouldn't be analyzed in isolation, but that it was likely a sign that the Fergusson police force had squandered, through bad treatment of minorities, the rapport that a police force must cultivate and maintain with the community it serves.

Tim being Tim, he made these points categorically and emphatically and (and repeatedly ) Some, including me, took the position that we should wait for the various inquiries before making such claims.

Well, now the federal probe has come in, and it indeed shows that the Fergusson police department regularly engaged in racially discriminatory behavior in the ~5 years leading up to this incident. I think we "let's wait for the inquiry" folks should therefore be explicit in acknowledging the validity and accuracy of Tim's early framing of this incident.

Wow. Thanks.

 

[warpus]

So basically the protesters were right?

What sort of legal power does this finding have? What happens now?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

So basically the protesters were right?

What sort of legal power does this finding have? What happens now?

The FPD institutes reforms to the satisfaction of justice department oversight, and if they don't the federal justice department goes to a federal court and seeks authorization to run the department themselves for a period of time estimated sufficient to reform it themselves.

Which sounds great.

In practice, the FPD institutes policies that sound good, and half their force immediately quits. They hire people who are willing to follow the new policies. Half the old timers remaining receive some sort of disciplinary action within the first year for violation of the policies. Their disciplinary action is reduced to bare wrist slaps if they resign, and most do. They too are replaced by people willing to follow the new policies.

A year later the FPD is deemed a fine police force by the feds, and it probably is. All the officers who left are employed in surrounding communities or the county sheriff's department where they are beacons of racism, touting constantly how the feds 'have it in' for 'good policemen just doing the job' when they 'have to crack a few thugs heads'. Note that this includes one guy the Ferguson PD already hired after his first job turned out to be with a police force that was outright dissolved under similar circumstances.

The county sheriff and chiefs of police in surrounding communities will campaign constantly in the local media regarding how the 'open sore' of lawlessness in Ferguson is the source of all problems. Leadership in the FPD will be under constant pressure to undo the reforms. The FPD will receive minimal support from outside agencies, and their officers will need to maintain constant awareness that they can be hung out to dry at any time by sheriff's deputies in joint response situations. The court system and county prosecutor's office will 'sympathize with their plight' rather than support their reform.

And the beat goes on.

And the 'wait and see' crowd won't stick around long enough to see Ferguson in twenty years right back where it was two years ago.

 

[EgonSpengler]

And the beat goes on.

Yep, the Blue Wall is already marshaling.

Jeff Roorda, a spokesman for the St. Louis Police Officers Association, said there were many factors involved and he wanted to avoid a "rush to judgment."

Rather than blaming racial bias, there should be a "mature, frank conversation in the country about why kids like Michael Brown... end up in deadly confrontations with police," Roorda said.

Police have been kicking the living crap out of people for decades, and he wants to avoid a rush to judgment.

 

[jackelgull]

I find this to be an interesting article on Ferguson.

http://www.epi.org/publication/making-ferguson/

I like the history it reveals, though I don't agree with the conclusions.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Yep, the Blue Wall is already marshaling.


Police have been kicking the living crap out of people for decades, and he wants to avoid a rush to judgment.

The standard police union response:

"We aren't racists! Why oh why do people keep making us shoot them? Don't they realize the psychological damage that is doing to us? What is wrong with those [expletives]? And now people mistakenly think we are part of the problem!"


Here's a thought. Anyone who is released from a police job under any disciplinary circumstances, or resigns during any investigation, should be permanently tagged as 'not suitable for hiring by law enforcement'.

 

[civvver]

Can someone summarize the findings? All I saw in a brief blurb was "According to the findings, African-Americans make up 67 percent of the population of Ferguson, but were subject to 85 percent of traffic stops, 90 percent of citations and 93 percent of arrests."

And further in:

"African Americans accounted for 95 percent of all &#8220;Manner of Walking in Roadway&#8221; -- essentially jaywalking -- charges, 94 percent of &#8220;failure to comply&#8221; charges and 92 percent of all &#8220;peace disturbance&#8221; charges."

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/ferg...show-pattern-discrimination/story?id=29361802

Which doesn't prove anything. It could show racial tendencies but it could also just be that black people there do indeed commit 93% of the crimes or 95% of the jaywalking charges. What you need to do is see the percentage of suspects vs actual arrests or something, see if whites are being overlooked and let off the hook while blacks aren't. If a white guy and a black guy both jaywalk is the black guy more likely to get ticketed? Just saying well 95% of the tickets go to black guys doesn't prove that.

The email jokes should be subject to disciplinary action cus those violate workplace policy but that doesn't prove the jokers act racially when on patrol. All it shows is they like racist jokes, not that they were discriminatory in their police actions.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Can someone summarize the findings? All I saw in a brief blurb was "According to the findings, African-Americans make up 67 percent of the population of Ferguson, but were subject to 85 percent of traffic stops, 90 percent of citations and 93 percent of arrests."

And further in:

"African Americans accounted for 95 percent of all “Manner of Walking in Roadway” -- essentially jaywalking -- charges, 94 percent of “failure to comply” charges and 92 percent of all “peace disturbance” charges."

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/ferg...show-pattern-discrimination/story?id=29361802

Which doesn't prove anything. It could show racial tendencies but it could also just be that black people there do indeed commit 93% of the crimes or 95% of the jaywalking charges. What you need to do is see the percentage of suspects vs actual arrests or something, see if whites are being overlooked and let off the hook while blacks aren't. If a white guy and a black guy both jaywalk is the black guy more likely to get ticketed? Just saying well 95% of the tickets go to black guys doesn't prove that.

The email jokes should be subject to disciplinary action cus those violate workplace policy but that doesn't prove the jokers act racially when on patrol. All it shows is they like racist jokes, not that they were discriminatory in their police actions.

Here we go. Those darn blacks don't teach their kids not to jaywalk and cops end up looking bad. The whole world is out to get the poor downtrodden cops.