Foreign Policy: UniversCiv

[Sommerswerd]

You are right of course,except remember that this line of thinking is part of what got us into the War with CivFr.

Of course we feel entitled to all the spoils of War, but we must be realistic. The mighty lion knows that the hyenas and jackals and vultures will come and pick at his newly killed carcass even while he is eating it. He may chase them away, but they will come back while his back is turned. This is to be expected, and while don't want other bystanders reaping our spoils, we must be prepared to either destroy yhrm to prevent it, or be happy to just let them take what scraps they can.

 

[classical_hero]

Don't forget that CivFR wanted to get most of the land while not even doing anything.

 

[Sommerswerd]

In retrospect, maybe it might have been better to just say OK to what CivFr was asking, no mater how infuriating it was or ridiculous or unfair. Just let them take whatever they wanted and quietly big a large army to come in and take it all away by force and wipe them out. Then they would not have built any Army, just buildings and economy...

Anyway, something to think about for next time this situation comes up.

 

[whb]

In retrospect, maybe it might have been better to just say OK to what CivFr was asking, no mater how infuriating it was or ridiculous or unfair. Just let them take whatever they wanted and quietly big a large army to come in and take it all away by force and wipe them out. Then they would not have built any Army, just buildings and economy...

I don't think we should have said OK. But given how little fighting there has been while at war, I'm pretty sure that if we had just turned down their demand without declaring war, we'd still be at peace.

(I really suspect when the forums are opened at the end of the game, we'll find their demand was a flubbed negotiating gambit.)

 

[YossarianLives]

If CivFr had reacted reasonably, then it would have been the right call. It's been a pain dealing with them, but we've basically gotten what we needed, and are still on track to lead the dogpile against RB, so we came out ok.

As for UCiv, I think it'll be a little harder to get them on board now that we have settled the deer city, but we weren't really planning on their support anyways and we already have a long NAP with them until t200, so if that's all we get from them, we're fine.

 

[vranasm]

In retrospect, maybe it might have been better to just say OK to what CivFr was asking, no mater how infuriating it was or ridiculous or unfair. Just let them take whatever they wanted and quietly big a large army to come in and take it all away by force and wipe them out. Then they would not have built any Army, just buildings and economy...

Anyway, something to think about for next time this situation comes up.

I respect your opinion, but feel that you largely underestimate CivFR and Apolyton in this game since from what I saw we should worry about them the same way as RB

giving them half the Zulu land for free was never good option for us.

Actually the successful espionage campaign done by Apolyton is something that is really worrying me, since they have land, they have techs and are in "right alliance" which to this date seems to me like plans to do the heavy fighting for them...

It wouldn't be any surprise for me if the dogpile on RB will make Apolyton the strongest team on map... and CivFR is wildcard...

I can see why RB tries all the time to aim our eyes towards them (they are big, building infra, no military investment, blahblah), but it has some merit in the end...

Seems to me like they employed to some extend SP strategy of no military investment, "good diplo" (aka they exploited all teams nonwillingness to commit to rushes since in MP it's usually the way to lose games) and teched and rexed quietly waiting for breakout...

 

[2metraninja]

Both Sommers and whb are right unfortunately in the part that we should had acted more smart and tricky than outright declaring them a war

But this time we gambled and turned out not good gamble. Next time hopefully we got it better.

And yes, the one thing that is making me feel good is we made army and fought war to get land. CivFR is fighting a war and had raised the same amount of army to only get nothing beside a single city Chinook

 

[2metraninja]

Seems to me like they employed to some extend SP strategy of no military investment, "good diplo" (aka they exploited all teams nonwillingness to commit to rushes since in MP it's usually the way to lose games) and teched and rexed quietly waiting for breakout...

This seems about right. Their mistake however (I hope) is that they try to measure up with us. They came to the wrong neighborhood

Depending on our success with RB war, this may means doom for CivFR. If we 3 turn our sight on them with our huge and hardened from war armies, CivFR will be lost in no time.

 

[RegentMan]

in the part that we should had acted more smart and tricky than outright declaring them a war

We?

 

[2metraninja]

I like the tiny irony.

My reasons back then to go ahead and declare wars were few. One was to show we mean serious business and to make them uncertain if they did not made serious mistake by threatening us. Next was that we were going to be threat for their advancing soldiers which would have needed to advance more careful expecting not only attacks from the zulu soldiers, but from our own avant-garde. And the biggest reason was to deny them the money from the GM mission which would had allowed them to upgrade units and pose serious threat to our own units. Their GM was in range to make his trade mission in Indira next turn so it was a matter of half turn to decide what to do. Plus I thought us having their GM trapped in our territory, we will have a serious lever in the bargaining which I expected to follow. This reasoning was on the threads and looking back at the situation, I would be glad if someone had pointed out that they have second GP and can start their GA, circumnavigating all our efforts to deny them money for upgrades and keeping their GM's life as bargaining chip. Alas, we were outmaneuvered back there. That's why I say "We"

 

[YossarianLives]

Looks like we got OB with UCiv after all.



Unfortunately, to send Fast Workers this way towards CP will take twice as long and involve skirting them past CivFr borders in unclaimed land.

Plus, look what these rascals are up to:

 

[Sommerswerd]

Fine, we can flip the city with culture or spies. Let's just let them put the city there and start pumping the culture in Palalimputra and Vajayjay.

 

[2metraninja]

I am back to civilization.

I doubt we will be able to convert this city at all. Never saw this with cities planted relatively in one and the same time. Normally it requires an existing culture powerhouse and newly settled city in its vicinities. We can try using "Spread culture" espionage mission en-masse but this will require some 15 spies and quite an espionage spending.

At least I pillaged the underlying village for some 30+ gold. What I found interesting is the first time I pillaged it gave nothing. Nada. Zero. Bistrita told me that money from pillage depends from how old the improvement is. So this might have been just matured to village when we captured Nobamba. Which makes sense, I just never knew this, I always thought it gives some RND number as if you are pillaging a mine or farm.

 

[2metraninja]

Hmmm, interesting, Uciv moved their settler back. Seems they wont settle where we thought they will. I wonder what made this change in their intentions.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Well let's try to pop the border ASAP and deny that location in case they change their mind

 

[2metraninja]

Third ring will be hard to get quick with city size1. Or we can just settle a city of our own on that location (which isnt bad at all, except we will add second city to our front and will be somewhat burden to our anyway weak economics in this moment with 2 other just settled cities and plans for capturing the barb city in the zulu south soon)? I did not mind much if Uciv settle city there btw. It will be enclave which can be reinforced only trough our territory or by sea and will ALWAYS be more our hostage instead of benefit to Uciv.

 

[Sommerswerd]

just leave the spot unclaimed. If they take it so be it. No need to crash our economy for some OCD need to claim every single tile.

 

[2metraninja]

Ot4e just told me that Uciv gifted 800 gold to RB. What an exciting twist of events!

I can only imagine what an offer RB did to Uciv for them changing their mind from "we will help you against RB" to "here, take our money, dear RB".

 

[Aivoturso]

Maybe RB sold their GP that they couldn't exchange to a peace to UCiv? Would explain both OB and money transfer. ATM, RB probably needs hard cash to prepare for war more than anything else (aside from allies they couldn't muster).

 

[2metraninja]

This is a draft for a message to be sent to Uciv. It might have some effect, or no effect at all, but still it is better do something instead we do nothing about it

Dear Team Uciv,

we are surprised and a bit disappointed to see you provide Team RB with gold after you said you will help us against Team RB last time we spoke. Still, this may have be simply a matter of business for you and not means love or binding to RB. In such a case we would like to know what are the terms for you to give a loan to us too. We have proven record of keeping our agreements and paying back our debts. Not like RB who promised to WPC 6 German cities and lied to them so WPC got not a single city for all the help WPC did to RB. We warned Team WPC back in the time that helping RB is not a good idea and this will end bad for them, but they did not listened to us. Now they are sorely regretting their decision to work with RB, but there is not much to be done. We hope you have made your deal better secured as we would hate to see RB tricking one more team and benefiting from it to further strength their own leading position.

Love, Team CFC"