Game of Thrones Season 5 discussion thread

[MacAttack]

If Jon is one of those tabbed to save the world, why not do it Jesus style? Being executed by his own, and then beat death and resurrect himself.

spoiler alert for those who didnt read the books:

Spoiler :

Besides, he a Targaryan and Stark by blood, he can do it.

Remember the video I posted earlier? around min 11 talks about Jon being stabbed, and the sucker was Published on Jan 22, 2015.
Link to video.

so sadly i was not surprised. Stannis could still be alive too if hes Azor Ahai. But i doubt that.

 

[MacAttack]

Spoiler :

"Warging" into Ghost is as good as dead though. Whose body does he come back to for season 7? I'm sad they did not leave his assassination a little more vague, like they did in the books. Kit's and the director's comments (hastily googled after watching the episode) seem fairly definitive that (a) Jon Snow is gone "next season" and (b) Kit's done with the show. What that means for the character remains anyone's guess. He just seems way too central to the underlying main plot of the story to be dead and totally 100% gone.

he signed on for two more seasons through not too long ago, (Octoberish) what about that? He even got a raise.

 

[illram]

he signed on for two more seasons through not too long ago, (Octoberish) what about that? He even got a raise.

I'm going to omit spoiler tags since we all should have watched the show by now.

I don't think anything the actors or producers or directors say matters at this point since they have contradicted themselves so many times (e.g. David Nutter saying "dead is dead," sure except when it's clearly not in both the books and the show). Leaked contractual info is too speculative for me to cling to. Also the showrunners annoyingly said they wanted to be definitive in the final episode, but we were left with absolutely none of the main character deaths/final happenings being definitive whatsoever. Sansa and Theon? Nope. Myrcella? Most likely, but not definitive. Stannis? Nice editing! Even Arya's fate was left unsealed. And then we have Jon Snow--arguably the most "definitive" ending for all of the characters. At least we see it happen from beginning to end. (My take--Myrcella and Stannis are definitely dead. I can only assume the show is going to do to Arya what the books did to Arya. Sansa and Theon survive the fall. Jon Snow? Ummm)

So if they want to leave it open, and it sure does not seem like they want any of us to think he is coming back, the only things I can cling to are narrative clues. All of us have invested some serious book and tv watching time into this protagonist, and he seems so central to everything that is happening, not to mention the subject of the biggest non-secret spoiler of the whole series, that it just seems like there is more that he needs to do. Some others have raised the interesting point that his death (and hopefully rebirth) leaves him free to actually leave the Watch and fulfill what may be a higher calling for Westeros--and perhaps the entire world--which makes a lot of sense. Plus we have several hints in the show about prophecies of death and rebirth that we can attribute to him (not to mention hints in the books, but it is dangerous to rely on the books at this point).

But that gets back to the issue of how he comes back, if we all assume (hope?) he does actually come back. I don't like any of the alternatives that seem to revolve around his absence for an entire season because no matter what, it means we have been majorly majorly toyed with in a very cliche fashion. (I.e., "surprise! He's not dead!") I hate to be that "but the book did it some other way!" guy but the book did leave this a lot more open ended, almost to the point where you sort of think "oh well of course he's not really dead." The book does that with a few character "deaths," i.e. Davos, where the reader knows or has a very good suspicion whats up and part of the fun is reading about how the characters all figure it out, and you are expecting the "payoff" where all is revealed. (The book does also in one major point do the cliche "surprise!" bit too of course...) That's a different plot device though than how the show seems to be operating, if indeed he is coming back. The show's death is way more definitive, making his possible return way more ridiculous. It's about screwing with our heads vs. screwing with the character's heads. So at this point it is almost less annoying if he really is truly dead. Our hopes and emotional investments and ideas about what life is supposed to lead to are gone, we are immersed in the cold dark despair that is life in Westeros, and the show and the book truly diverge and I get to enjoy both having very different plot arcs.

I don't know. I'm still going through my stages of grief so at this point my ramblings are unformed.

 

[Pangaea]

Maybe Jon and Stannis has just been a ruse, and that Azor Ahai is Olly

Personally I don't think Jon is dead-dead, but time will tell. At this point the show has diverged so far from the books, and into pure idiocy, that I hope the next book won't be out before season 6. Lets see how much these bozos f*ck it up when they have NOTHING to base the season on (or at best very little).

Also worth to keep in mind that the guiding principles of the show isn't internal cohesion, logic or character development, but shock value. What makes sense or seems most plausible, may be the last thing they want to put on screen.

 

[JollyRoger]

We need to line up the show runners so we can have a "for the watchers" ceremony.

 

[Atticus]

Lets see how much these bozos f*ck it up when they have NOTHING to base the season on (or at best very little).

IIRC Martin has let them in on what is going to happen in the books, since they're filming this faster than he's writing and because he might die before writing the rest of it.

 

[Kyriakos]

Maybe Jon and Stannis has just been a ruse, and that Azor Ahai is Olly

Maybe J+S=R (Jon and Stannis has just been Roose)

 

[Pangaea]

IIRC Martin has let them in on what is going to happen in the books, since they're filming this faster than he's writing and because he might die before writing the rest of it.

I'm aware of that, but information like that won't be terribly detailed I would imagine, and in any case we have seen, especially this season, that even when they have great source material to work with, they still f*ck it up. Without a book to consult, I can't imagine anything but an even worse result on screen.

 

[MacAttack]

im sure Martin has showed them all his notes and plans. I really really doubt he is writing his books on the fly. I have a good feeling he already knows how his series is supposed to end. Regardless of his health.

 

[illram]

On non Jon Snow related topics, does Season 6 skip over the whole Iron Islands sub plot that was just totally skipped? Or does it go back and mine that material for more filler while offering a slow drip on whatever is supposed to come next in the last books?

I figure that with two books left they won't have time to take any stuff they skipped over already, even if the show is now "loosely based" on the GRRM canon. But I thought some of the action in that subplot and the potential for when/if Victarion makes it to Dany could be interesting.

 

[Antilogic]

To my understanding, they are sticking with their heavily abbreviated version of the books' story, and will not be introducing some of the other plots like Young Griff, the Iron Islands plot, etc.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

They have cast at least one Greyjoy for next season.

 

[RobAnybody]

...because no matter what, it means we have been majorly majorly toyed with in a very cliche fashion. (I.e., "surprise! He's not dead!")...

Just to address this one point, in this particular story, where they've killed off many, many "main" characters permanently, it would actually be the opposite of cliché to bring Jon back. You get everyone used to "anyone can die", then pull a "OMG he's back!" & it's suddenly *not* what people expect to happen.

im sure Martin has showed them all his notes and plans. I really really doubt he is writing his books on the fly. I have a good feeling he already knows how his series is supposed to end. Regardless of his health.

I agree. I think he always had an endgame. He just got a bit lost trying to get there. I've read, so just speculation, that he wanted to have a "5 year time jump" at one point, so... 1) Arya gets extensive training, 2) Bran learns to be a tree, 3) Dany has ruled Meereen for a while & her dragons grew up, 4) maybe Sansa has learned more from Littlefinger, 5) Tommen & Rickon grew up a bit, etc. Stuff like that.

But for one reason or another it just didn't work. Too many plots left in limbo. Slow motion White Walkers for one.

It probably would have helped some things, although no doubt Gilly's baby would still be an infant for some reason, like he has been during the show.

Anyway, to reiterate, I think he knew, & the showrunners know, how things are supposed to end. Book/Season 7 was probably already conceived by both from the beginning. It's just a bit of a mess how you get there.

 

[Cynovolans]

On non Jon Snow related topics, does Season 6 skip over the whole Iron Islands sub plot that was just totally skipped? Or does it go back and mine that material for more filler while offering a slow drip on whatever is supposed to come next in the last books?

I figure that with two books left they won't have time to take any stuff they skipped over already, even if the show is now "loosely based" on the GRRM canon. But I thought some of the action in that subplot and the potential for when/if Victarion makes it to Dany could be interesting.

There have been casting calls for a pirate-like character and a military commander so people are speculating that those are for Euron and Randyll. Oldtown appearing would also make since with the direction Sam was going in the finale. But if it is like how they did Dorne I guess it will be altered quite a bit from the books.

 

[Camikaze]

Reading r/gameofthrones it seems that Jon's resurrection is almost considered canon already. But there are two things to keep in mind:

1. He's dead as a doornail. That's the starting point. He has unambiguously been killed.
2. The series is known for killing off main characters when you don't expect them to die.

So sure, it's eminently plausible that Jon will be raised from the dead (you'd expect someone in the show to come back given Melisandre's scenes with Thoros and Beric - which interestingly also foresaw Arya's blindness), but I think there's a pretty huge element of wishful thinking/denial in this.

I really hope they don't try to shoehorn in another sub-plot next season. It's disappointing that there hasn't been closure on the Greyjoys, but the show is much better when they don't spread the story too thin, and when they can concentrate more on dialogue than things happening.

 

[BvBPL]

Seen in Williamsburg (of course):

 

[Pangaea]

Reading r/gameofthrones it seems that Jon's resurrection is almost considered canon already. But there are two things to keep in mind:

1. He's dead as a doornail. That's the starting point. He has unambiguously been killed.
2. The series is known for killing off main characters when you don't expect them to die.

So sure, it's eminently plausible that Jon will be raised from the dead (you'd expect someone in the show to come back given Melisandre's scenes with Thoros and Beric - which interestingly also foresaw Arya's blindness), but I think there's a pretty huge element of wishful thinking/denial in this.

I really hope they don't try to shoehorn in another sub-plot next season. It's disappointing that there hasn't been closure on the Greyjoys, but the show is much better when they don't spread the story too thin, and when they can concentrate more on dialogue than things happening.

If I were just to base it on the TV show, then he certainly looks dead as a door nail. Many are clinging on to the books here, however, where there were more than a few indications he may not be dead. For instance, the show has really played down the warging for pretty much everybody, which is more prevalent in the books, and is something Jon can do, although he hasn't embraced it yet, like Bran has. This is why book-readers were so flabbergasted by his last word being "Olly".

Then there is of course all the speculation that he is rather more important than a b*stard, and may well be Azor Ahai reborn. There are two books left, however, so a lot can happen yet, and Jon may of course be dead-dead, and that's it for him. I don't think that is the case, but if he is brought back by Red Bewbs, will he be the same? Going by Beric/Thoros, something is lost each time.

 

[Kyriakos]

The kindness of Bolton heir Ramsay, an equal to that of 20 good men


Link to video.

 

[Cynovolans]

Everyone that says Jon is dead and gone please remember the scene where Sam said "Jon always comes back" then smiled and winked at the camera.

Ok, Sam didn't do that last part but the showrunners are about as subtle as a gynecologist wearing a gas mask.

 

[Kyriakos]