Genesis and Other Creation Myths

It depends on what you mean by literal. For example, what did "the world" mean to prehistoric tribal people?

The flooding of the Red Sea and the Black Sea have both been hypothesized. Both are quite recent geologically. A river valley culture in either place would have been drowned past the tops of the surrounding heights.

J

I thought I was clear when I posed my question in Post #376. I might have done better to specify a global Flood, with water covering the Earth to the top of Mount Everest, plus 6.9 meters. 4 human male survivors in the entire world.

I forgot to mention the animals specified. One "Y" chromosome per "kind."

Going to your question, "what did 'the world' mean to prehistoric tribal people?" I imagine "the world" would be all the land you could reasonably travel to, plus neighboring lands you have been told about. If you fire up a game of Civilization, it would be the visible map when you plunk down your first city.

Alexander the Great conquered "the world." What did "the world" mean to people at his time?

Modern people translate "the world" to mean Planet Earth.

Your point is accepted: You are saying a literal translation of the Genesis Flood does not exclude the Flood as a local event. Now you have 4 male survivors of a tribe forming their own tribes and nations.

A river valley culture - Specifically the Tigris and Euphrates - I do not know how flat that land is. What would a 7 meter flood do to that region?
 
If you were Roman, 'the world' meant exactly what we think it means. When they said that they ruled the world, they simply denied the legitimacy of any other government.
 
I thought I was clear when I posed my question in Post #376. I might have done better to specify a global Flood, with water covering the Earth to the top of Mount Everest, plus 6.9 meters. 4 human male survivors in the entire world.

I forgot to mention the animals specified. One "Y" chromosome per "kind."

Going to your question, "what did 'the world' mean to prehistoric tribal people?" I imagine "the world" would be all the land you could reasonably travel to, plus neighboring lands you have been told about. If you fire up a game of Civilization, it would be the visible map when you plunk down your first city.

Alexander the Great conquered "the world." What did "the world" mean to people at his time?

Modern people translate "the world" to mean Planet Earth.

Your point is accepted: You are saying a literal translation of the Genesis Flood does not exclude the Flood as a local event. Now you have 4 male survivors of a tribe forming their own tribes and nations.

A river valley culture - Specifically the Tigris and Euphrates - I do not know how flat that land is. What would a 7 meter flood do to that region?
Which is a large part of the problem with this discussion.

I have been to see the Tigris river. I am from Kansas. In my expert opinion, it is flat but not billiard table. This is beside the point. The rivers in question would still be under salt water. What is the bottom of the Black Sea like.

While local, in the sense that it is not outside of a few dozen kilometers, the flooding of the sea basin was a massive event. It was not a 7 meter flood, but a 700 meter flood, which never completely subsided. That land is not flat by any standard, but major local prominences were covered, at least initially. they would now be islands.

If you were Roman, 'the world' meant exactly what we think it means. When they said that they ruled the world, they simply denied the legitimacy of any other government.
Biblical Greek used two terms translated as "the world." One essentially meant the Empire. The other meant everyone Rome traded with or had knowledge concerning. To a Roman, the world covered most of Europe, North Africa and the a quarter of Asia, with fuzzy areas at the edge of the map.

J
 
I thought I was clear when I posed my question in Post #376. I might have done better to specify a global Flood, with water covering the Earth to the top of Mount Everest, plus 6.9 meters. 4 human male survivors in the entire world.

I forgot to mention the animals specified. One "Y" chromosome per "kind."

Going to your question, "what did 'the world' mean to prehistoric tribal people?" I imagine "the world" would be all the land you could reasonably travel to, plus neighboring lands you have been told about. If you fire up a game of Civilization, it would be the visible map when you plunk down your first city.

Alexander the Great conquered "the world." What did "the world" mean to people at his time?

Modern people translate "the world" to mean Planet Earth.



Your point is accepted: You are saying a literal translation of the Genesis Flood does not exclude the Flood as a local event. Now you have 4 male survivors of a tribe forming their own tribes and nations.

A river valley culture - Specifically the Tigris and Euphrates - I do not know how flat that land is. What would a 7 meter flood do to that region?

While we are defining the "earth", we should also define what that earth was like at the time of the Flood. Taking into account that nothing geological happened between Genesis 1 and 5, then there was only one land mass, and one Sea and not 6 major continents. For that matter, a mountain would probably only be the size of the Appalachian Mountains. Before the Flood there was no rain. Then the entire earth had a constant rain over the entire surface for 40 days without stopping. It was not a weather system. It was the controlled collapse of the waters that were separated in Genesis 1:7. At the same time the one land mass was broken up and shifted around. It was for quite some time after the Flood, and the continents were still shifting, and pushing against each other, when the tallest mountains were forming to their current height. In the history of the Mediterranean, it was said to have emptied and filled up 7 times. If you take the Genesis account literally, there was no Mediterranean, Or there was only the Mediterranean and no other large bodies of water. until after the Flood. The Flood may have happened any time in the last 10,000 years. There are signs of human settlements buried dozens of meters under water around the European coastline, including the Black Sea. They were once part of the single land mass, before it was divided.

The ark was 30 cubits high. In order for it to float unhindered, according to the account the water was 15 cubits deep (above the then current heights). It took 150 days for the water to go down before the ark rested on the highest point. It was another 2 and a half months, after that, before they could see any other mountain tops. The current height of the mountains in Turkey range from 11,200 to 9,000 cubits. The agricultural explosion in this area was not wiped out by the Flood, it happened after the Flood. This explosion was forgotten about when language was confounded, and humans were forced to spread out all around the earth. This happened at least 1000 years after the Flood, if not longer. After this mass migration, the continents were still in motion, ie separating like they are today. The seams in the oceans with new formation are pushing the continents away from each other. To throw in the fact that the earth was also hit by several giant asteroids at the same time would account for the collapse of the water above the atmosphere and the fact that there was no dust from hitting a land mass. The fountains of the deep were busted open from the impact causing the land to collapse, and releasing the water under the crust ( the deep).

IMO, God knew what was going to happen, and it was a natural event. The punishment was not the event, but the fact that no one accepted Noah's word. Not saying that God did not throw a couple of small moons, toward the earth, while at the same time, no one else other than Noah and his sons, built an ark to save themselves, that we know of. I contend the different stories were actually the same event as verbally handed down from generation to generation. Eventually the sun will absorb the earth and engulf it like a lake of fire, but humans refuse to think that it may happen at any time.

As for a biological bottle neck, humans lived to about 400 years of age, after the flood, and had dozens of offspring. 400 years after the Flood, humans lived for about 300 years of age, and had dozens of offspring. It was not until about 1000 years after the Flood when the human lifespan was reduced to 120 years. About 2000 years after the Flood, humans were only guaranteed 70 years. A biologist cannot take current factors into consideration when determining any bottle necks, unless they deny the claims made in the account. I am not sure we can even understand what it means to live for hundreds of years and have a hundred offspring. Perhaps the females at that time were not that thrilled at giving birth for hundreds of years, but it would seem that even with birth control in place there would still be plenty of females after even just 200 years.

If humans lived for hundreds of years, why would not animals? They also breed a lot faster than humans do. The current model uses the genealogy timeline to mock those who contend for a young earth, and then refuses to use it to adjust for biological factors. Do we even know what a human would look like after 1000 years, if the living conditions were different from what they are now. It would seem to me that humans were much different before the Flood, than they evolved to after the Flood. Unless one refuses to think that evolution works in short amounts of time. The Flood was recorded as a dramatic life changing event for the whole earth. Even metaphorically, the change could have been even more drastic than what was actually recorded. As the earth was transforming over a period of several thousand years or more, there were a lot of major floods and even earth shaking events. None of them lived up to the standard of the first one. Even the Mediterranean dried up, perhaps 7 times and refilled, and no one thinks it life shattering. The last time or even a couple of times spilling into the Black Sea.

I realize that this does not fit the timeline of the accepted current models. I am just putting out there what the record states. The one/s who wrote the record 3000 years ago were either lying or being lied to or telling the truth. I am not sure we can use circular logic today to prove one way or the other.
 
Where does it say that the Mediterranean Sea dried up and filled 7 times? That is new to me.

How do we know that in the years of chaos after the flood and Babel they weren't counting years differently than we do now? That may be why they think people lived so long.
 
Or it's possible that flood myths spring up of their own accord relatively regularly - much like, well, floods.

The myths generally point to one being far worse

While we are defining the "earth", we should also define what that earth was like at the time of the Flood. Taking into account that nothing geological happened between Genesis 1 and 5, then there was only one land mass, and one Sea and not 6 major continents.

God called the waters "Seas", it doesn't say there was one sea and one landmass

Before the Flood there was no rain.

In Gen 2:6 a mist rises up to water the ground, but it doesn't say it hadn't rained, only that it hadn't rained on the Earth (ground).

Then the entire earth had a constant rain over the entire surface for 40 days without stopping. It was not a weather system. It was the controlled collapse of the waters that were separated in Genesis 1:7.

We dont have enough water to cover the highest mountains

At the same time the one land mass was broken up and shifted around. It was for quite some time after the Flood, and the continents were still shifting, and pushing against each other, when the tallest mountains were forming to their current height.

Plate tectonics precedes the Flood, that was the process that allowed the Earth (dry land) to appear from under the water

In the history of the Mediterranean, it was said to have emptied and filled up 7 times.

I think that happened a few million years ago when NW Africa bumped up against Gibraltar, but I dont know how many times

The Flood may have happened any time in the last 10,000 years. There are signs of human settlements buried dozens of meters under water around the European coastline, including the Black Sea.

Seas rose ~400 ft from about 20 kya to 7.5 kya when the Black Sea flooded.

It was not until about 1000 years after the Flood when the human lifespan was reduced to 120 years.

The 120 years was before the Flood (Gen 6:3) and according to Zecharia Sitchin the 120 years refers to God's timescale, the Sumerian "sar" or divine year was 3600 years. That makes the 120 years actually 432,000 years, that was how long mankind would live before the Flood wiped us out.

http://www.world-destiny.org/a26kl.htm

Compare the Norse Edda:

Five hundred doors and forty there are, I ween, in Valhalla's walls; eight hundred fighters through each door fare when to war with the Wolf they go.

"Curiously 540 doors times 800 warriors is 432,000, that magical number from Berossus. We are also reminded of the Hindu myths of 12,000 divine years with 360 human years in each divine year. These 4,320,000 human years (10 X 432,000) are in each period of Brahma. The age of Kali, in which we now live, had 1200 divine years and therefore 432,000 human years, the same as the number from the Icelandic epic tale and from the Berossus' king reigns. Each speaks of a great cycle of earth time, a dispensation of the gods."
 
Where does it say that the Mediterranean Sea dried up and filled 7 times? That is new to me.

How do we know that in the years of chaos after the flood and Babel they weren't counting years differently than we do now? That may be why they think people lived so long.


There have been several scientific studies around the Mediterranean over the last 30 years. It is pretty interesting. There is a lot of information about how salty the Med really is. The article I was reading today, pointed out how it is actually a deep rift between the two plates, and how much salt is layered and filling it up.



The myths generally point to one being far worse



God called the waters "Seas", it doesn't say there was one sea and one landmass



In Gen 2:6 a mist rises up to water the ground, but it doesn't say it hadn't rained, only that it hadn't rained on the Earth (ground).

The account says that the waters were gathered together in one place. If there was water in only one place, then the rest of the globe was land. If you assume that the earth was around before God came along, then where did all the water come from? At one point in time there was more water than land. God separated the water. Then God separated the land from the water. Before that there was just water and no land. It would sound unreasonable to say that it never rained for millions of years, but Noah had never seen a flood nor had he seen rain.

It had not rained, and no one had seen a rainbow until after the Flood. Noah did not know what rain was, and by Faith he trusted God when God said he would bring down water from the sky. Yes the mist watered the ground, because God had not made it to rain yet. The next time we hear about rain, was when God told Noah it would rain. It then rained night and day for 40 days.


We dont have enough water to cover the highest mountains



Plate tectonics precedes the Flood, that was the process that allowed the Earth (dry land) to appear from under the water



I think that happened a few million years ago when NW Africa bumped up against Gibraltar, but I dont know how many times



Seas rose ~400 ft from about 20 kya to 7.5 kya when the Black Sea flooded.



The 120 years was before the Flood (Gen 6:3) and according to Zecharia Sitchin the 120 years refers to God's timescale, the Sumerian "sar" or divine year was 3600 years. That makes the 120 years actually 432,000 years, that was how long mankind would live before the Flood wiped us out.

http://www.world-destiny.org/a26kl.htm

Compare the Norse Edda:



"Curiously 540 doors times 800 warriors is 432,000, that magical number from Berossus. We are also reminded of the Hindu myths of 12,000 divine years with 360 human years in each divine year. These 4,320,000 human years (10 X 432,000) are in each period of Brahma. The age of Kali, in which we now live, had 1200 divine years and therefore 432,000 human years, the same as the number from the Icelandic epic tale and from the Berossus' king reigns. Each speaks of a great cycle of earth time, a dispensation of the gods."


According to Genesis, the Flood happened 1656 years after Adam left the Garden of Eden. Where has all the water gone in that short of time, when the whole earth was under the water? The current earth has not changed much in the last 2000 years. Why would the stated time in Genesis, bring about any drastic changes?

Some Hebrews say that the First and Second day covered the first 9~ billion years of the universe. I make no claims how old the earth is nor how young it is. The First chapter says the earth is formless matter covered/surrounded by water, even before there was light. That light was not the sun. The sun was not named until the 4th day. The light was the "big bang" that kicked started motion in the universe, and then there was darkness, until the Stars were named on the 4th day.

Even the ancient peoples taught evolution and long expanses of time. Some ideas are hard to get rid of. Noah knew what really happened and then humans soon forgot, and God confounded their language. Jesus and his disciples knew what happened, and within several hundred years, people stopped accepting what they had been told. The Bible for the most part has not been changed at least not in the last 400 years. I am not sure why people are trying to claim this is a modern day concept. Noah lived through the Flood, and Peter said that the old world was destroyed as in it was completely changed, and the next time the destruction will be from fire and the earth would be consumed.


I have read the English translation of perhaps the oldest veda, Veyu Perana. From my impression, they seem to tell the creation myth in a philosophical mixture of religion, and scientific nomenclature. The whole of creation includes an evolutionary tale of trial and error by God. The basic point still claims the un-created God (Brahma) created the universe with the earth being the focal point of the narrative. It happened like lightning, (big bang) Then the earth was covered in water. God raised the earth out of the water and formed the 7 continents and 7 oceans encircling them. I am being very concise, because the whole narrative would take up too much space. God then created a lot of different forms of gods, and humans, and some plants and animals. The interesting point is that there was a fiery collision of three worlds and then the earth was once again flooded completely with water, and recreated brand new again. No survivors at all. The narrative reads the same as the first creation, with 7 new continents and 7 oceans. This started another round with a slightly different order of creation. From what I can tell this lasted for millions of years and several different re-incarnations, but for some reason it is understood that the earth was destroyed by fire and each time baptized with water. I may be wrong, but only one time did it mention three worlds colliding and the earth being flooded. Sometimes the earth would just swallow everything and it would be re-spawned. The concept of multiple universes and the evolutionary nature of the creation over millions of years is intertwined, but it would seem that perhaps they were not sure about there being just one universe. It seems though that God (brahma) was only not-created once, but goes to sleep during all subsequent cycles.
 
The myths generally point to one being far worse

Having occasionally listened patiently while somebody tells me about the worst rainstorm they've ever seen, which always grows with every telling of the story, I can only imagine what happens to 'our village, and all the villages near it, got flooded and we had to abandon them' after a few centuries of a similar processhappening to it.
 
Having occasionally listened patiently while somebody tells me about the worst rainstorm they've ever seen, which always grows with every telling of the story, I can only imagine what happens to 'our village, and all the villages near it, got flooded and we had to abandon them' after a few centuries of a similar processhappening to it.

In spite of all the flooding people have seen over the centuries and millennia, only one flood serves as the Great Flood in myth - one so "worldwide" it has survived probably since the ice age. Now why would people actually witness horrific floods for thousands of years only to recall in myth one flood that happened so long ago?

I'm inclined to believe our ancestors living through the big melt down and mostly within range of a coastline saw their seas rise ~400 ft. Not all at once of course, but there's little doubt in my mind the rise was erratic and seas could have risen ~10-20 ft or more almost over night.

Maybe an impact was involved, tsunamis bouncing all over coast lines around the world or collapsing an ice sheet in Canada blocking a glacial lake. The water vapor might account for the deluge part of the story, but the "fountains of the deep" preceded the rain and was sudden.

I'm sure many people in the Black Sea basin 7500 years ago had to quickly abandon their homes but I doubt many drowned, albeit that would have made for one helluva fountain as the Mediterranean poured in. That situation was rather unique, so its possible it spawned many flood myths in the region. But if earlier peoples, including some of their ancestors, had already suffered through the Great Flood, then the myth goes further back.

There is a lot of information about how salty the Med really is. The article I was reading today, pointed out how it is actually a deep rift between the two plates, and how much salt is layered and filling it up.

The Mediterranean was once part of the Tethys Sea, a long lasting ocean in between and bordering the major landmasses. Its been collecting sediment for eons and still does. Did the article offer explanations for the build up of salt?

The account says that the waters were gathered together in one place. If there was water in only one place, then the rest of the globe was land.

God called the waters "Seas", not Sea or ocean. If there was just one ocean and one landmass then "Seas" would not apply. These people were surrounded by seas that were considered parts of the surrounding ocean, that is the gathering of waters into one place as seas.

But who knows, if this planet was hit by an object(s) ~4 bya large enough to put a face or rabbit on the Moon then maybe the first "land" was concentrated in one region like it would be on the Moon if it had an ocean.

If you assume that the earth was around before God came along, then where did all the water come from? At one point in time there was more water than land.

I think this planet might have formed at the asteroid belt and ~4 bya it was surrounded by water, no (dry) land, just one ocean covering everything and in darkness just like Gen 1:2 describes. That region is the logical place in the early solar system for a water planet to form because of the solar wind.

The ocean could have been dozens or even hundred of miles deep and most of it was left behind when the Earth was given a new orbit closer to the Sun with land-producing plate tectonics and life.

God separated the water. Then God separated the land from the water. Before that there was just water and no land.

God did that on the 2nd and 3rd days, the water was there before the 1st day.

Yes the mist watered the ground, because God had not made it to rain yet. The next time we hear about rain, was when God told Noah it would rain. It then rained night and day for 40 days.

The mist was rain and it preceded man, therefore it appears on one of the first few days of creation:

When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground, and a mist was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground— then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

According to Genesis, the Flood happened 1656 years after Adam left the Garden of Eden. Where has all the water gone in that short of time, when the whole earth was under the water?

The Earth was under water ~4 billion years ago (Gen 1:2), that was when we were left with roughly our current supply. The question for you is: if the Flood of Noah covered the highest mountains, where did the water go? If it was caused by the collapse of some massive body of water in the sky, where did the water go? I dont think Noah's Flood covered the world, most life on the planet was not recently wiped out.

The First chapter says the earth is formless matter covered/surrounded by water, even before there was light. That light was not the sun. The sun was not named until the 4th day.

The Sun was appointed to rule over Earth's sky on the 4th Day, the Earth is named on the 3rd Day - the Sun already existed but it had to wait for its appointment because the Earth was still submerged until the 3rd Day.
 
In spite of all the flooding people have seen over the centuries and millennia, only one flood serves as the Great Flood in myth - one so "worldwide" it has survived probably since the ice age. Now why would people actually witness horrific floods for thousands of years only to recall in myth one flood that happened so long ago?

How do you know they're all talking about the same flood?
 
If you were Roman, 'the world' meant exactly what we think it means. When they said that they ruled the world, they simply denied the legitimacy of any other government.
They couldn't have laid claim to what they didn't know existed.

Before the Flood there was no rain. Then the entire earth had a constant rain over the entire surface for 40 days without stopping. It was not a weather system. It was the controlled collapse of the waters that were separated in Genesis 1:7. At the same time the one land mass was broken up and shifted around. It was for quite some time after the Flood, and the continents were still shifting, and pushing against each other, when the tallest mountains were forming to their current height. In the history of the Mediterranean, it was said to have emptied and filled up 7 times. If you take the Genesis account literally, there was no Mediterranean, Or there was only the Mediterranean and no other large bodies of water. until after the Flood. The Flood may have happened any time in the last 10,000 years. There are signs of human settlements buried dozens of meters under water around the European coastline, including the Black Sea. They were once part of the single land mass, before it was divided.
:lmao:

No rain until a few thousand years ago?

There was rain before this time period. The continents were where they are now (give or take an island here and there). The mountains had formed. And there are archaeological sites that go back well over 10,000 years ago.

The agricultural explosion in this area was not wiped out by the Flood, it happened after the Flood. This explosion was forgotten about when language was confounded, and humans were forced to spread out all around the earth. This happened at least 1000 years after the Flood, if not longer. After this mass migration, the continents were still in motion, ie separating like they are today. The seams in the oceans with new formation are pushing the continents away from each other. To throw in the fact that the earth was also hit by several giant asteroids at the same time would account for the collapse of the water above the atmosphere and the fact that there was no dust from hitting a land mass. The fountains of the deep were busted open from the impact causing the land to collapse, and releasing the water under the crust ( the deep).
:shake:

Continents are in motion, yes. But not to the extent where there was a single landmass before the Flood and separation afterward. That's just an attempt to get around the question of how animals could have survived if they weren't native to the Middle East (must have been an amazing sight, all those unique North/Central/South American, Australian, and other animals swimming and flying to the Middle East so they could be saved from a flood that never happened).

Eventually the sun will absorb the earth and engulf it like a lake of fire, but humans refuse to think that it may happen at any time.
In several billion years, yes. Not tomorrow, next year, next century, next millennium, or in the next million years.

As for a biological bottle neck, humans lived to about 400 years of age, after the flood, and had dozens of offspring. 400 years after the Flood, humans lived for about 300 years of age, and had dozens of offspring. It was not until about 1000 years after the Flood when the human lifespan was reduced to 120 years. About 2000 years after the Flood, humans were only guaranteed 70 years. A biologist cannot take current factors into consideration when determining any bottle necks, unless they deny the claims made in the account. I am not sure we can even understand what it means to live for hundreds of years and have a hundred offspring. Perhaps the females at that time were not that thrilled at giving birth for hundreds of years, but it would seem that even with birth control in place there would still be plenty of females after even just 200 years.
This entire paragraph contradicts basic human biology.

Where does it say that the Mediterranean Sea dried up and filled 7 times? That is new to me.

How do we know that in the years of chaos after the flood and Babel they weren't counting years differently than we do now? That may be why they think people lived so long.
Isaac Asimov hypothesized that there was an error in translation, and "years" should really have been "months." And different societies dated their histories in different ways. The Romans, for example, counted from the traditional founding of Rome, and otherwise deemed that Event X had occurred during the Consulship of Persons A and B.

Noah had never seen a flood nor had he seen rain.

It had not rained, and no one had seen a rainbow until after the Flood. Noah did not know what rain was, and by Faith he trusted God when God said he would bring down water from the sky. Yes the mist watered the ground, because God had not made it to rain yet. The next time we hear about rain, was when God told Noah it would rain. It then rained night and day for 40 days.
Oh. Come. On. :huh:

No rain? Earth would have been a desert. The animals and plants that need water wouldn't have survived.

According to Genesis, the Flood happened 1656 years after Adam left the Garden of Eden. Where has all the water gone in that short of time, when the whole earth was under the water? The current earth has not changed much in the last 2000 years. Why would the stated time in Genesis, bring about any drastic changes?
The whole Earth was not underwater.

In spite of all the flooding people have seen over the centuries and millennia, only one flood serves as the Great Flood in myth - one so "worldwide" it has survived probably since the ice age. Now why would people actually witness horrific floods for thousands of years only to recall in myth one flood that happened so long ago?

I'm inclined to believe our ancestors living through the big melt down and mostly within range of a coastline saw their seas rise ~400 ft. Not all at once of course, but there's little doubt in my mind the rise was erratic and seas could have risen ~10-20 ft or more almost over night.

Maybe an impact was involved, tsunamis bouncing all over coast lines around the world or collapsing an ice sheet in Canada blocking a glacial lake. The water vapor might account for the deluge part of the story, but the "fountains of the deep" preceded the rain and was sudden.
Naturally, you'll be pleased to provide links to peer-reviewed articles to corroborate all these wild guesses and over-enthusiastic speculations...

God called the waters "Seas", not Sea or ocean. If there was just one ocean and one landmass then "Seas" would not apply. These people were surrounded by seas that were considered parts of the surrounding ocean, that is the gathering of waters into one place as seas.
Look at any atlas. With the exception of places like the Dead Sea, the surface salt water is part of one continuous ocean that's divided into geographic regions agreed on by humans. Some regions are called "seas" (ie. Aegian Sea).

But who knows, if this planet was hit by an object(s) ~4 bya large enough to put a face or rabbit on the Moon then maybe the first "land" was concentrated in one region like it would be on the Moon if it had an ocean.
So the Moon has the optical illusion of a face on it because Earth was hit by something? O-kay... (pretty sure it's because stuff hit the Moon, but since you know so much more than genuine planetary scientists, I'll just have to go along with your version and chuck out centuries' worth of knowledge gathered by real scientists)
 
Looks like I opened a can of worms with a question.

How many Y chromosomes? Would the correct answer after 4500 years be 1?

Sent from my LG-D800 using Tapatalk
 
I thought I was clear when I posed my question in Post #376. I might have done better to specify a global Flood, with water covering the Earth to the top of Mount Everest, plus 6.9 meters. 4 human male survivors in the entire world.

I forgot to mention the animals specified. One "Y" chromosome per "kind."
Still not clear after rereading #376.

It was seven pairs of food animals and two pairs of other animals. Eight humans, but only five distinct because three were directly from Noah and his wife. One Y chromosome.

Looks like I opened a can of worms with a question.

How many Y chromosomes? Would the correct answer after 4500 years be 1?

Sent from my LG-D800 using Tapatalk

Adam's. If you go from the flood, the answer is still one, Noah's.

J
 
How do you know they're all talking about the same flood?

I dont, there could be multiple sources as peoples protected from sea rise were finally overcome and had to relocate. The Persian Gulf flooded ~8,000 years ago not too long before the Black Sea event. And whomever was around to watch Lake Agassiz or other vast glacial lakes drain would have seen a flood for the ages.

I imagine we've had several "worldwide" cataclysms within our time on the planet but people far from the Black Sea had Flood myths they placed even further back. I presume the people watching the Mediterranean pouring through the Bosphorus also knew of that earlier Flood - and the flooding of the Persian Gulf.

By the time the Black Sea flooded ~7500 years ago our ancestors had already witnessed over 300 ft of sea rise as the ice melted. Not that ice age people couldn't have suffered cataclysmic floods with lower sea levels, an ocean impact will make a splash regardless.

But apparently the river valley now under the Persian Gulf was exposed land for several 10s of thousands of years before the ice melted and seas reclaimed it. We have evidence the people displaced by that flood built settlements ringing the new body of water.

I suspect the "Great Flood" happened earlier and was observable to virtually everyone on the planet in one way or another - from celestial phenomenon to waves or storms, etc. Here's a researcher who places the Great Flood in the spring of 2807 BC based on his analysis. He could be right, but the date seems too recent for me. The Eden, if it was where the Persian Gulf is now, could not have been destroyed by a Great Flood in 2800 BC if it had been under water since 6000 BC.

But the stories of the great flood give even more cause for thought. In South America it is the most commonly reported worldwide catastrophe. Masse found it in 171 myths among groups scattered from Tierra del Fuego in the south to the far northwest part of the continent. It is consistently the earliest disaster, always reported prior to the world fire, falling sky and darkness. In the vast majority of cases only a single great flood is described, which Masse thinks makes it unlikely that it represents recollection of local or regional flooding.

And South America isn't the only place it occurs.

http://archaeology.about.com/od/climatechange/a/masse_king.htm

Its an interesting read, many myths tie the Flood to a celestial event.

Naturally, you'll be pleased to provide links to peer-reviewed articles to corroborate all these wild guesses and over-enthusiastic speculations...

The last time you wanted a link (to igneous rock forming under water), I provided the link and you denied asking for it. Now you want peer reviewed articles to support my opinions? How many of those have you linked to support yours? Does the Oort Cloud become reality if no peer reviewed articles prove it doesn't exist? And does it become reality if a peer reviewed article says it does exist? Be specific, I'm not going to track down several links just to cover your definition of a wild guess.

Look at any atlas. With the exception of places like the Dead Sea, the surface salt water is part of one continuous ocean that's divided into geographic regions agreed on by humans. Some regions are called "seas" (ie. Aegian Sea).

And people have known that for a long time... Would that qualify as "gathering the waters unto one place"?

So the Moon has the optical illusion of a face on it because Earth was hit by something?

Yes, that was the side facing the Earth during the collision ~4 bya

O-kay... (pretty sure it's because stuff hit the Moon, but since you know so much more than genuine planetary scientists, I'll just have to go along with your version and chuck out centuries' worth of knowledge gathered by real scientists)

See? No peer reviewed article... When did genuine planetary scientists decide the Moon cannot be hit by material ejected from a terrestrial impact? I thought it was a terrestrial impact that gave rise to the Moon. Stuff did hit the Moon - debris from a collision between the Earth and another object(s) slammed into the side facing us and left those dark maria or "seas" forming the face or rabbit (or...)

The Moon shows us what happened to the Earth preceding - "creating" - the land (plate tectonics) and life around 4 billion years ago and why we have very little terrestrial evidence of anything before that. Some researchers are trying to explain the Moon's surface by claiming a 2nd moon might have formed during/after the giant impact 4.5 bya and merged with the far side of the Moon to create the highlands.

Another theory is the Moon formed with a thinner crust facing us because of an early tidal locking while both were still very hot from the impact 4.5 bya. Both theories have the same flaw, the evidence we do have shows the Moon got plastered on one side by heavier, more radioactive material a 1/2 billion years after formation. The same event is why the Earth is still so hot, much of our crust was sheared off by an impactor laden with heavy elements.
 
The Mediterranean was once part of the Tethys Sea, a long lasting ocean in between and bordering the major landmasses. Its been collecting sediment for eons and still does. Did the article offer explanations for the build up of salt?.

Run off from Africa into the Med.

It would seem to me that After the Flood, and the continents were moving at a different rate than they do now, water would come in from the Atlantic, evaporate, and then fill up again. Some models show that even the Continents, could have been covered with huge ocean like seas. As these oceans filled up the Oceans, the water would flood the Med, then the seams in the Ocean floor would open up more room in the Ocean leaving the Med to evaporate, until the oceans filled back up. The North American continent was probably the last land area to empty out it's internal "ocean". It is interesting that the Med is the oldest continental spread area. It is also the only land-locked Sea that is the closest to the Equator so it's waters never cool like the other Oceans. The other salty body of water, nearby is the Dead Sea.

God called the waters "Seas", not Sea or ocean. If there was just one ocean and one landmass then "Seas" would not apply. These people were surrounded by seas that were considered parts of the surrounding ocean, that is the gathering of waters into one place as seas.

It is a geographical illusion. You see the sea/ocean on the west coast, and then another one on the east coast. If you never go north or south, you may never realize you are on an island and proclaim, we are surrounded by two seas.

Pangaea was the first Land mass that came out of the water. It later was split apart. The water was gathered together in one place. That one place did not mean that land surrounded it, but that the water surrounded the land without any continental separation, the definition of one place. It never says the land was divided, and there can still be the sense of Seas surrounding the Pangaea. See last section.


But who knows, if this planet was hit by an object(s) ~4 bya large enough to put a face or rabbit on the Moon then maybe the first "land" was concentrated in one region like it would be on the Moon if it had an ocean.

My theory/hypothesis is that the earth may have been smaller in mass. Two moon size objects (the three worlds colliding in the Veda) hitting the earth would have added more mass, and they could have broken apart and hit in two major spots, but with dozens of impact sights. It would have affected the earth's axis, and perhaps the orbital path as well. The tectonic plates were broken up and completely recycled at this point, leaving only the two original parts in Africa and Australia. In the same event, there would have been more land mass available thus changing the ratio of land and water.

I think this planet might have formed at the asteroid belt and ~4 bya it was surrounded by water, no (dry) land, just one ocean covering everything and in darkness just like Gen 1:2 describes. That region is the logical place in the early solar system for a water planet to form because of the solar wind.

The ocean could have been dozens or even hundred of miles deep and most of it was left behind when the Earth was given a new orbit closer to the Sun with land-producing plate tectonics and life.

The problem is that both the Genesis account, and the Veda account, state the water is the makeup of the universe itself. Not a separate area of the universe, or even the solar system. The water is the beginning and end of each cycle of the universe.

Some in the past have reasoned from this that the whole universe is surrounded by water. That would be a lot of water. You also have to remember that the solar system is not even in the same spot from where it started, as it is on an orbital path around the milky way. Could there be huge pockets of water spread throughout the universe?

God did that on the 2nd and 3rd days, the water was there before the 1st day.

The mist was rain and it preceded man, therefore it appears on one of the first few days of creation:

The Earth was under water ~4 billion years ago (Gen 1:2), that was when we were left with roughly our current supply. The question for you is: if the Flood of Noah covered the highest mountains, where did the water go? If it was caused by the collapse of some massive body of water in the sky, where did the water go? I dont think Noah's Flood covered the world, most life on the planet was not recently wiped out.

There is still water in the form of ice in the atmosphere. If the tectonic plates were to brake apart into small chunks, and were evened out and leveled flat, they would either sink under the weight of the water, or float on the surface of the water as one land mass, with no water above ground at all. No one knows what it looked like when all the land was covered with water. According to geologist there is only a small portion of Australia and a larger size portion in Africa that was part of the first continent that was "out of water". All other current tectonic plate portions where under water after the Flood, long enough to classify them as being from a different "time" period.

The veda describes that after each "Flood" (there was only one major one, but many after floods), the mountains were like chunks of rock and God moved them around to re-build the mountains like the Himalayans. That seems to give a sense that the mountains were not a natural occurrence but an "artificial" construct. The first Christians foretell that in the future the valleys would be filled in and the mountains leveled like a huge reconstruction event which humans would be able to watch and not be killed or wiped out when it happens. With human's able to move around in today's economy, mountains seem like hills. In the past they were impassible borders preventing humans from mixing with each other, unless they put some effort into the process. There did not have to be any mountains before the Flood. All humanity were all together in one homogenous group. Chapter 1 of Genesis says that God made humans male and female and placed them on the earth. The 2nd chapter told of just one Human that God created and singled out to torment in the Garden of Eden.

IMO, there was only one Pangaea that came out of the water, it was destroyed in the Flood event, and only two small sections of the current form survived the effects of the Flood. The Flood did not happen 4500 years ago, and probably not even 6000 years ago. It was 10,000+ years or before the current known "recorded" history. Evolution is not a modern concept. It was around 5000 years ago, but without the influence of Greek philosophical reasoning that led to modern science.

The Sun was appointed to rule over Earth's sky on the 4th Day, the Earth is named on the 3rd Day - the Sun already existed but it had to wait for its appointment because the Earth was still submerged until the 3rd Day.

I also said the sun and the whole universe in it's current form (not size, it has been expanding) existed in verse 1. You keep telling me that God did not create it. All I said is that the universe was dark until the 4th day, and then the stars including the sun started to send out radiation in the form of light. It does not matter if the earth was covered with water, or land was "visible" God even put plant life on the earth on day 3. The 2nd and 3rd day there was still darkness after God separated the light from darkness. The universe had time and motion, but was in darkness. The current model states that the darkness lasted for 400,380,000 years.

The Veda I read cleared up some things for me. After reading it though, I can appreciate the concise account in the book of Genesis. Even before Hindu, the proto concept started out with only one God. In the English version, there is a 65 page introduction that attempts to explain what the Veda is saying. Then there is a 21 page summery. From my feeble attempt to understand any of it, it would seem that multiple gods, is the philosophical rationalization of why this one God did anything. Even the Greeks were more concise. I may have misunderstood, but even the Hindu rejected the earlier writings as part of their scriptures, and yet they took parts of them as a basis for their religion.

No rain until a few thousand years ago?

There was rain before this time period. The continents were where they are now (give or take an island here and there). The mountains had formed. And there are archaeological sites that go back well over 10,000 years ago.)

I am not claiming that the Flood was a few thousand years ago. It happened before the current round of human's conscious recorded history. The ancients (after this Flood) believed in evolution as well. It happened before the current round of "known" history, as well as during the then current history. We have found remains of this "destroyed" world that we cannot explain, but we do call it evolution.

Continents are in motion, yes. But not to the extent where there was a single landmass before the Flood and separation afterward. That's just an attempt to get around the question of how animals could have survived if they weren't native to the Middle East (must have been an amazing sight, all those unique North/Central/South American, Australian, and other animals swimming and flying to the Middle East so they could be saved from a flood that never happened).

There were no continents to have animals "unique to" before the Flood. They can only be unique if it happened after the Flood. How are you going to convince the thousands of people who experienced it, that it did not happen? How did ancient humans describe events, that only modern science can explain, and almost come up with the same evolutionary description? It was either imagined or experienced. They experienced it, and the story grew over time. Modern humans imagine what happened without taking into account that such events can be experienced. They imagine it an impossibility.

In several billion years, yes. Not tomorrow, next year, next century, next millennium, or in the next million years.

Only time will tell, and that is an extraordinary claim. Not a single human can prove that it will happen in a billions years, or will happen in a few thousand years. The assumption is based on the current rate of change, and that is the biggest assumption in the history of the universe.


This entire paragraph contradicts basic human biology.

Can you prove that it never happened that way? You accept that it could have been months instead of years. The life span went from 41 years to 10 years. Couples were having up to twelve children and then died at the age of 10? At 2, they started having children, and had at least 1.5 kids a year, for 8 years and then died. And this only lasted for 83 years. How was that possible and miraculously allow there to be people in Africa, Europe, India, China, and the Americas? Changing the definition of years to months contradicts basic human biology.


Oh. Come. On. :huh:

No rain? Earth would have been a desert. The animals and plants that need water wouldn't have survived.

The whole Earth was not underwater.

So for billions of years nothing happened? Then billions of more years and nothing happened? How could nothing happen for billions of years?

All of the humans in the ancient world grew up hearing stories of how the earth was under water, and that there was enough water to take care of life. Then something happened and destroyed this world, and it was considered a major event where everything was destroyed, in a Flood. Perhaps the Flood was not water, but actually a Flood of fire. Fire scorched the whole earth and burned up the water, and guess what? after billions of years, there was enough water filtering through the atmosphere, and the earth again was able to provide life. How did the humans know that the Flood was fire after a billion years? Saying the earth was never totally covered by water, and that it was not possible that the first continent was destroyed defies logic. How did the ancient humans guess what happened without first hand experience? How do modern humans guess at what happened? They both describe the same event. One set said that humans experienced it. The other set says that is not possible, it happened billions of years ago. The current model concurs that the earth was once mostly water with one land mass, which was made up by collisions of a lot of small ones. There is no clue how this collision was set in motion. No clue, no explanation. The Ancients said that the land appeared out of water, not a collision of bits of land.

The ancients who believed in evolution said there were 7 continents that were totally engulfed in water. Modern science says there was one continent that was split up. There has only been one Flood that changed the first continent into 7. The ancients were contradicting modern science by stating there was not one continent, but 7. The Genesis account says that there was one land mass that came out of the water and then was destroyed by a Flood event. Modern cosmology claims there was one Pangaea, and it gradually spread apart, without anything to set it in motion. It just started "happening" about 160 million years ago.

The ancients who believed in evolution said that after the Flood there were millions of years of evolution. Modern science agrees with their evolutionary explanation. The Genesis account states that the old world was lost and the current known human history happened after the Flood. Maybe there was a mistranslation, and instead of millions of years, the ancients meant millions of day cycles? Otherwise the ancients were able to keep the experience of 200 million years in their "conscious" history like it was yesterday. The ancients about 9,000 to 10,000 years ago wrote down a very sophisticated and graphically detailed event that left a very deep impression on their psyche that they taught people to memorize it in verse form. Perhaps they made it up, We come up with thoughts in modern times and instruct our kids through are education system to accept the same beliefs we come up with, even though we do not experience them. Perhaps they did experience the core belief, and it grew bigger and bigger as humans who had not experienced it, added their own interpretations? Eventually it is all relegated to a religious experience without humans even realizing it. The evolution of a belief system no matter how regulated, is the basis of religion. Even science is not immune to falling into the black hole of religion.
 
Nothing is recorded. That does not mean nothing happened.

J

Actually everything is recorded, thus everything happens. We just do not realize it as humans, and we are the only one's who can appreciate it.
 
I dont, there could be multiple sources as peoples protected from sea rise were finally overcome and had to relocate. The Persian Gulf flooded ~8,000 years ago not too long before the Black Sea event. And whomever was around to watch Lake Agassiz or other vast glacial lakes drain would have seen a flood for the ages.

I imagine we've had several "worldwide" cataclysms within our time on the planet but people far from the Black Sea had Flood myths they placed even further back. I presume the people watching the Mediterranean pouring through the Bosphorus also knew of that earlier Flood - and the flooding of the Persian Gulf.

By the time the Black Sea flooded ~7500 years ago our ancestors had already witnessed over 300 ft of sea rise as the ice melted. Not that ice age people couldn't have suffered cataclysmic floods with lower sea levels, an ocean impact will make a splash regardless.

But apparently the river valley now under the Persian Gulf was exposed land for several 10s of thousands of years before the ice melted and seas reclaimed it. We have evidence the people displaced by that flood built settlements ringing the new body of water.

I suspect the "Great Flood" happened earlier and was observable to virtually everyone on the planet in one way or another - from celestial phenomenon to waves or storms, etc. Here's a researcher who places the Great Flood in the spring of 2807 BC based on his analysis. He could be right, but the date seems too recent for me. The Eden, if it was where the Persian Gulf is now, could not have been destroyed by a Great Flood in 2800 BC if it had been under water since 6000 BC.

If the Garden of Eden was destroyed in 6,000 BC, that would make it significantly younger than the city of Jericho, founded by 9,000 BC.
 
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