[RD] GOP Repeals Weird, Old Rule for Gun Sales. You Wouldn’t Believe How Scientists Respond!

BvBPL

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This week, the Senate, following similar action by the House, voted to repeal an Obama-era rule blocking gun sales to the mentally ill. The Obama rule was put in place after the Sandy Hook shootings and was intended to address gun violence perpetrated by the mentally ill. The rule banned the some seventy-five thousand people who receive Social Security benefits through an assigned representative from purchasing guns. Essential this targeted the population who cannot be trusted to control their own finances. Psychiatrists, civil libertarians, and mental health advocacy groups rallied against the rule when it was purposed by the Obama administration, citing concerns about the effectiveness of the rule, due process concerns, and painting the mentally ill as being violent.

Now, two psychiatrists are celebrating the repeal of the rule and bringing to attention the importance of making rules based upon evidence, not momentary sensationalism. Jeffery Swanson and Paul Appelbaum have both come out as advocates for repealing the Obama rule because the rule was based on bad science. Swanson and Appelbaum both cite studies showing that the mentally ill are not any more of a danger than people without mental illness when it comes to guns. Furthermore, the target population, people whose mental illness is of a nature that it affects their financial competency to such a degree that they require Social Security payment by representation, are not a class of people at high risk for causing violence. Where only 3-5% of gun violence can be attributed to mental illness and where the class of parties affected by this rule are not a risk group for violence, the rule is not constructed to serve the purpose of reducing explosive gun violence. It was overly broad in its catchment and categorized thousands of people did not pose a threat to themselves or others as potentially harmful.

In addition to the rule not being well-designed to reducing gun violence against others, the Swanson and Appelbaum both have concerns about the general treatment of the mentally ill in the greater debate about gun control. Where a small fraction of gun violence can be attributed to mental illness, focusing on mental illness as a source of gun violence disingenuously paints those suffering with mental health concerns as a violent threat to the greater society. As mental health advocates work to remove the stigma around mental illness in the general public, using the mentally ill as scapegoats for a broader gun violence program is a step backward.

Finally, both psychiatrists raise civil rights concerns over the removal of constitutional rights from the mentally ill without due process. The rule removed a constitutional right from a whole class of people without adjudication and without sufficient evidence that the rule would be effective. In an America where the civil right of individuals seem to be under fire, we need to advocate strongly that due process be observed, particularly for more vulnerable individuals.

American desperately needs to address its gun violence problems, but falsely claiming that mental illness is behind those problems will achieve nothing. A holistic approach must be utilized, rather than demonizing vulnerable elements of the population for the sake of sensationalism.

Swanson said:
In a society where guns are highly prevalent and the right to own them is constitutionally protected, solving a public health crisis that claims 35,000 lives every year (two-thirds by their own hand) is like a jigsaw puzzle. There are many causes of the problem, and many parts to an effective solution. Merely pointing the finger at “mental illness” will not solve this puzzle.
 
Iam pretty sure most Trump voters are about to be certified insane so Republicans are pre-emptively protecting their rights to access guns
 
I actually agree that mental illness alone shouldn't prohibit you from owning a gun. I've read shooting a gun can be therapeutic (and even boost testosterone). I haven't tried it (shooting, not owning) yet but look forward to.
 
It's one thing to prevent convicted felons from owning guns; but to prevent innocent people from exercising their Constitutional Rights is absurd. It certainly appeared that President Obama was simply appeasing the gun-control wing of his Party by this rule. It was arbitrary in that it lumped those folk with simple mental disfunction will those with a more serious disorder.

The Hill sez;

"Critics argue the rule stripped Second Amendment rights from people who are not dangerously mentally ill, such as those with eating or sleeping disorders or disabilities that prevent them from managing their own finances."

When I applied for my CCW, I had to pass a mental health screen - but that was designed to identify people who have been hospitalized for serious mental disorders by the Courts.
 
Wow. People just gotta have guns. :rolleyes:

Somebody was shot in my building a couple of weeks ago - armed robbery. Thankfully nobody died, and it was over and done with and the cops came and handled everything... so efficiently that I never even knew anything had happened until my company arrived in the early evening and asked why there were cops coming and going.

There's been so much renovation of apartments going on here these past couple of months (with the accompanying noise of hammers and drills), I never realized what really happened until later.
 
I just don't understand why people are allowed to burn the American flag when it is obviously more patriotic to shoot it.
 
I don't think it's actually against the law to shoot flags.

Meanwhile, both Congress and the president seem happy to repeal and ban lots of things, but not so much with replacing them with better things. This will be a fun administration to watch - as long as you're not an American citizen, that is.
 
So gun violence in America isn't actually about mental health but is therefore about the availability of guns?

Awesome. Now tell that to conservatives and to the gun lobby.
 
Good. It was a stupid policy.

According to NPR's Susan Davis, the measure being blocked from implementation would have required the Social Security Administration to send records of some beneficiaries with severe mental disabilities to the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System. About 75,000 people found mentally incapable of managing their financial affairs would have been affected.

What the does being financially challenged have to do with gun ownership? Why the hell would anyone think this is a reasonable criteria by which to prohibit someone from owning a gun?

Mental health issues in regards to violence or lack of grasp on reality? Nope. Lets focus on people who can't balance their check book without help. That'll work.
 
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To be honest, I wasn't a fan of this rule either.

I don't own any guns, but I might in the future. I have mental health issues ( although I am not on Social Security due to them, so this wouldn't apply to me directly. ) It would be silly to use my past mental health statuses as a reason to deny me a gun over anyone else.

When I think of the number of "mentally healthy" people I know who have hair-trigger tempers and who I WOULD NOT trust with guns, versus my generally serene temperament, I get a little insulted.

It's a rather primitive and inaccurate idea that mental health problems = crazy, as though the population can be neatly divided into crazy and normal. Additionally, not all mental health problems are interchangeable. My mental health problems were, in essence, me being on that autism spectrum and a few other assorted issues. None of these are going to make me more likely to shoot anyone.

Now if someone has violent mood swings and hears voices that aren't there? I'm more inclined to say that their access to weaponry might at least need to be heavily reviewed.
 
Wow. People just gotta have guns. :rolleyes:
People gotta have their due process. In the US, the right to bear arms is on par with the rights to vote, travel, and free speech, among others. Due process must be followed to remove those rights. Easing the due process requirement to limit one right opens the door to easing it for other rights as well. When we live in a time where the right to travel can seemingly be voided based solely upon one’s religion and national origin and without due process, it is important to be attentive to all rights.

Also, rules gotta make sense. This rule wasn’t backed by evidence that it would be effective. It was instead a knee-jerk reaction to a horrible tragedy. It was the easy way for Obama to pretend he was doing something about violence without actually doing anything about it. When agencies make rules, those rules need to be geared to be effective towards the desired ends, this rule was not.

Finding out that an armed robbery occurred nearby can be terrifying. I am glad to hear no one died. I hope you and your neighbors stay safe.
 
I think something that broad might be a bade idea. I used to work with a guy who has a CCW. He probably suffers from mild depression and some anxiety, nothing major or out of the norm. He was also a vet and on some disability for his lungs. He told me he wanted to talk to a therapist and maybe get some zoloft or something but was worried that he would lose his permit if he did. He is definitely not a psychopath and perfectly responsible with his gun, but still those laws were discouraging him from seeking treatment for his issues.

So idk what the best course is.
 
I agree with overturning the ban, mainly on the grounds of not stigmatizing the mentally ill, and the ban using criteria not related to one's ability to safely handle a gun. There are all kinds of reasons one can be incompetent in front of the Social Security Administration, seems overbroad to place a blanket ban on gun ownership using that criterion.

I mean, the GOP isn't speaking out about grossly overbroad travel bans, so I don't expect any of these concerns are motivating the prioritization of overturning this ban, either.
 
Good. It was a stupid policy.



What the does being financially challenged have to do with gun ownership? Why the hell would anyone think this is a reasonable criteria by which to prohibit someone from owning a gun?

Mental health issues in regards to violence or lack of grasp on reality? Nope. Lets focus on people who can't balance their check book without help. That'll work.

I suspect that *this* part of it made more sense, in that it's what started the ball rolling on the checking. People were literally ticking a box saying that they had a cognitive issue. And so, when you needed to start a list of people suffering from cognitive issues, then that was a place to get the list started. It's not like a blanket ban started there. But, if we're going to try to restrict guns from those mentally ill enough to be a danger, there needs to be a starting point.

Nearly no 2nd Amendment fanboi really gives a crap about the mentally ill, though. When it comes to media storms, the mentally ill are probably the greatest threat for causing momentum against gun rights. Ostensibly, supporting proper diagnostics and therapeutics would go a long, long way in preventing these incidences ... but, nope. Nearly no one willing to give money to the NRA is also willing to give money to help the mentally ill.
 
But, if we're going to try to restrict guns from those mentally ill enough to be a danger, there needs to be a starting point.

Nearly no 2nd Amendment fanboi really gives a crap about the mentally ill, though. When it comes to media storms, the mentally ill are probably the greatest threat for causing momentum against gun rights. Ostensibly, supporting proper diagnostics and therapeutics would go a long, long way in preventing these incidences ... but, nope. Nearly no one willing to give money to the NRA is also willing to give money to help the mentally ill.
Actually, substance abuse issues are tied much more heavily to gun violence than mental illness. Banning drunks and addicts from having guns would do a lot more for reducing gun violence than banning the mentally ill.
 
True. But no one gives a crap about that. I'm talking politics. "Crazy person shoots people" gets headlines. And that's where political momentum comes from. Prophylactic nipping away at the incidence number both helps people AND is politically useful
 
The Obama rule was put in place after the Sandy Hook shootings and was intended to address gun violence perpetrated by the mentally ill. The rule banned the some seventy-five thousand people who receive Social Security benefits through an assigned representative from purchasing guns.
This does not look like a blanket ban to me.
Where only 3-5% of gun violence can be attributed to mental illness and where the class of parties affected by this rule are not a risk group for violence, the rule is not constructed to serve the purpose of reducing explosive gun violence.
If it were possible to reduce gun violence by 3-5% through a rule that only affects ~0.02% of the population, it would be an excellent result.
 
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