How to get a job (or not)

[BvBPL]

I never negotiate based on only salary, you can nearly always get the company to make the first offer, with details about non-salary compensation. Then you can negotiate based on total compensation, hashing out salary/benefit details afterwards.

Yeah, non-salary compensation is a bit tricky. Most companies will not negotiate it. The company offers 80 hours of vacation a year and that's it. However, if you have a company that is willing to negotiate those terms then it opens up a lateral means of negotiation. Which can be helpful in closing gaps.

Even companies that say they aren't willing to negotiate non-salary compensation can sometimes negotiate it. For example, the company may offer initially 40 hours of vacation for new hires, increasing to 80 hours after a year. If you have experience in the industry, you may be able to negotiate coming in at the 80 hour a year mark as a new hire.

I like holding non-salary compensation in my back pocket as an option because I am know I am already getting some baseline benefits. That way I can pull it out if the negotiation slows down. Zelig's philosophy is also valid. It's a personal preference.

Concrete examples are good, but don't make stuff up like "500 lines of code" if you're not absolutely positive that it's actually a good thing. (LoC has no useful correlation to productivity - over the past two years at my job, I've arguably been the most productive dev, and have averaged negative 400 lines of code per day.)

You should make your examples measurable and relevant to the job. I don't know if 500 lines of code is good or bad b/c I don't work in that field. I just used it as an example of a measurable justification.

If your justifications are not directly relevant to your job you may need to provide some context. For example, if I said I tried one hundred cases last year while maintaining an average of a dozen cases on my desk at once, that wouldn't necessarily be directly relevant to putting in for a job writing appellate briefs (and thus would not be my strongest argument). However, I can place that in context my saying that my workload exceeded the expected standards for my position and that I was in the top quintile of the lawyers in the office.

Exposing your minimum is only a problem if you have a weak position. Essentially, the minimum compensation you'll take should be equivalent to your BATNA from Getting to Yes. Worth reading as a primer, you can read it in an afternoon if you're quick.

Personally, I think that exposing your minimum inherently weakens you position. Or, at the least, exposing your minimum does nothing to improve your position and therefore isn't useful. Generally.

Your BANTA (best alternative to a negotiated agreement) is what you can expect if negotiations break down. It is what you have if you walk away. If you already have a firm offer at a baseline rate than that's your BANTA, but it might also be staying at your current job or staying unemployed. Your minimum should reflect your BANTA, but it isn't necessarily your BANTA exactly. For example, if you are advancing to management or a position with additional responsibilities, you will want your minimum to be significantly higher than your BANTA to reflect the additional duties you will have to take on.

I totally agree with the rest of Zelig's advice, particularly about reading about negotiations and Getting to Yes.

Post script: if possible, consider to whom you are making your pitch. Is it to another skilled worker, a managerial professional without skills in your field, or an HR rep? You may want to adjust the technical specificity of your arguments to reflect the technical skills of the other party. This is particularly true if you are applying for a specialized position that is outside of the general field of the company, like an IT or in house counsel position for a, I don't know, a marketing company or something. If the negotiating manager does not share your skill set you may want to expand on how your examples of your skills would benefit the company.

 

[Zelig]

Yeah, non-salary compensation is a bit tricky. Most companies will not negotiate it. The company offers 80 hours of vacation a year and that's it. However, if you have a company that is willing to negotiate those terms then it opens up a lateral means of negotiation. Which can be helpful in closing gaps.

Even if they won't negotiate on it, I'll get the details, calculate the monetary value, and then work out the difference they need to pay in salary. (While making them aware of these calculations.)

I don't know if 500 lines of code is good or bad b/c I don't work in that field.

It's neither, it simply isn't relevant... it's like measuring a carpenter's performance by "number of nails used per day".

If the carpenter knows this is a metric relevant to his compensation, he's going to make sure to use a lot of nails.

Your BANTA (best alternative to a negotiated agreement) is what you can expect if negotiations break down. It is what you have if you walk away. If you already have a firm offer at a baseline rate than that's your BANTA, but it might also be staying at your current job or staying unemployed. Your minimum should reflect your BANTA, but it isn't necessarily your BANTA exactly. For example, if you are advancing to management or a position with additional responsibilities, you will want your minimum to be significantly higher than your BANTA to reflect the additional duties you will have to take on.

"Equivalent" in the sense of "what it's worth to you", not straight up salary numbers. If you're making 50k at position A (your BATNA), and the minimum you'd take at position B is 70k, the implication is that 50k at position A is equivalent to 70k at position B.

In this situation, if you've got another offer already for 90k, you don't have much to lose by revealing it.

Also a misunderstanding of "management" if it's considered "advancing". Job of management is to minimize distractions to professionals doing work.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Thanks for your input guys, points very well taken.

Some background -

This is for a new job, not a promotion.

Non-salary compensation is not negotiable (i.e. they will only negotiate with me on salary).

I am negotiating with HR members (and junior ones at that given some replies I have received), not other engineers.

I used the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, my university's statistics and Salary.com numbers to make my case. I did not get into technical details (it's an HR person) of my experience but I did make the point that my background/experience were what the engineers I interviewed with were looking for in a candidate. I also provided links to the statistics I referenced in the post script of the email so they knew I wasn't pulling numbers out of a hat.

My counter offer was higher than my minimum to accept, however, the gap between even my minimum and what they initially offered is great enough that I don't they will bridge it. I am prepared to walk away if they cannot meet my minimum but also prepared to accept if they meet my target. If they meet my minimum, I will have to mull it over.

All of the negotiation so far has been through email FWIW.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I made my counter-offer and they came up on the salary but didn't meet my minimum and flat-out refused my high number. So I didn't see the point in continuing to haggle just to get to my minimum (which I don't think they would have ever got to given their counter-counter-offer) so I respectfully declined.

In retrospect, I think I set my sites too low to be honest. Too low in the sense that my high number I would have taken but my low number was iffy for me at best. So even if they made it to my low number, I'm not sure I would have taken it. Then when I realized I would be lucky to even get to my minimum, I decided it wasn't worth it to continue haggling over. In the end, I didn't want the job badly enough and I should have set my high number and minimum number even higher I think to give myself even more negotiating space. Although for this particular place, I don't think it would have helped - we were just that far apart to begin with and I was fine with walking away. But in the future, that's what I'll do - particularly if it's a job I really want. It's probably a problem that my low number wasn't even something I would gladly accept*.

The only problem is I'm not sure how I'll justify an even higher number. I essentially claimed
Average Aero BS grad salary
+ 2 years experience at 4% raise rate
=Total requested salary

I feel that that is fair but should I ask for more in the future? Should my raise rate be higher? I feel like 4% was a stretch as it was.

*Although for a job I really wanted, I would have gladly accepted it.

 

[Zelig]

Well I'm not familiar with your field or geographic region, but I'd ask how you got to 4% raise rate?

Did they give objective rationale for their counter-counter-offer?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Well I'm not familiar with your field or geographic region, but I'd ask how you got to 4% raise rate?

Did they give objective rationale for their counter-counter-offer?

The 4% was a number I pulled out of a hat to get to my salary goal and as I said, I felt it was a stretch. However, I didn't know how to quantify 'I don't want to work for you very badly, you will have to pay me more than I'd ask other companies'. I would still like the number that 4% got me too from any company but my minimum to accept from other companies would be much lower. So maybe I should leave the high number and lower my low number? Dunno. (obviously they don't know my low number)

Having said that, everything else in my counter offer was backed up with solid numbers from my field (and I included links in the post script) and was justified. The problem was that their initial offer was below even the regional average salary, so when I counter-offered I instead started at the average salary and added the raise rate. I even discounted my years of experience as I have one paid year of engineering experience and about 3 years of design team experience. I pointed out that it's easy for a firm to discount unpaid design team experience but in the interviews I was asked extensively about that design team experience and it was relevant to what they do so it should count for something. Then I generously discounted my design team experience to a single year of experience, hence a total of 2 years experience instead of 4.

They counter offered with just the average salary of aeros in my region and that was still well below my minimum.


They did not justify their counter offer whatsoever. I got a call from the HR rep who said her HR rep boss wouldn't do my high number and flatly told me the new number with no justification. I asked if it was a final offer and she didn't even know. I determined at that point we were still too far apart for me to bother haggling just to get to my minimum, which I said before, probably was too low for this job for me personally.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

What is a decent raise rate in general? I don't know.
Edit:

In fields where workers are in demand, salary raises are expected to be higher to entice workers to stay in their jobs. Accountants and finance workers could get raises between 3.3 percent and 3.5 percent; while salary increases for workers in computer technology and other high tech fields could be as high as 5.3 percent on average.

This was a programming position for a leading aerosopace manufacturer, so maybe I wasn't that far off in my raise rate?

 

[Zelig]

So, I'm not particularly sober with this combined Blue Jays game and federal elections, but your take seems pretty reasonable. Random thoughts:

When I get lowballed, I like to point out that I want to work with awesome people, so how are you able to recruit awesome people with below-average salaries.

If you need a job, I wouldn't feel bad about accepting one for less than I want - just don't stop the job hunt, if new interviewers ask why you're jumping ship so soon, give something along the lines of "I work with competent individuals who do good business, but am looking for awesome co-workers who do amazing work."

I really try to avoid negotiating with HR. Did you read the negotiating for engineers link I had previously? Preferably, you want the hiring manager to agree to hire you based on qualifications before you really push for salary.

Calculating raise per year is tough... personally, I wouldn't estimate anything past cost-of-living increases (i.e. inflation) - if I'm trying to justify a higher wage otherwise, I'd point at years of experience rather than yearly increases. In my experience, it's much easier to get significant raises by jumping ship than by negotiating once you already have a position.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Cool thanks for your input!

So, I'm not particularly sober with this combined Blue Jays game and federal elections, but your take seems pretty reasonable. Random thoughts:

When I get lowballed, I like to point out that I want to work with awesome people, so how are you able to recruit awesome people with below-average salaries.

I actually did exactly this. I almost posted my counter offer email here because it echoed so much of what you and others posted before I even saw your posts. I had mentors read it and they agreed it was very well written and thought out. Reading you guys use the same logic and arguments made me feel even more confident in my counter offer.

Company reps talked a big game about hiring only the best and I basically (and politely) threw that right back in their face. Oh yeah, you only hire the best but you just offered me less than average. What gives? Your engineers loved me, I'd be a good fit with experience you need for X projects but uh, you offered me less than average and I am not average to begin with.

Then they came back with the average number and I just walked. I pretty much made up my mind in the 5 minutes I was on the phone but decided to wait until I cleared it with Mrs. Yoyo.

If you need a job, I wouldn't feel bad about accepting one for less than I want - just don't stop the job hunt, if new interviewers ask why you're jumping ship so soon, give something along the lines of "I work with competent individuals who do good business, but am looking for awesome co-workers who do amazing work."

Thankfully, for the next 6 months or so, I don't desperately need a job. When that time gets closer, I will be much looser on my minimum salary number and will keep looking for a better job even if I take a sub-optimal one. But I have some time so I'm not rushing anything yet and I know my value and am not going to settle for less than that.

I really try to avoid negotiating with HR. Did you read the negotiating for engineers link I had previously? Preferably, you want the hiring manager to agree to hire you based on qualifications before you really push for salary.

Unfortunately I didn't get a choice. I had no other contacts to talk to except HR. And yes, I read the link, it was quite good, thanks for the share.

 

[Kennigit]

What's the cost of living?

I admittedly know very few people and also have not discussed money with people, but my impression is no one I know with nuclear engineering got the "average" starting salary or higher, which of course also lies well within the "lowest 10%" that US bureau of labor statistics gives in general [just googled now, don't see a better breakdown for entry level or years of experience or whatnot]. Which I mean that makes sense, but I think every person with a B.S. would be in bottom 1%.

Those numbers [I have to assume] get inflated partially by cost of living variances but more probably people that have 2-5 years experience and are willing to take a pay cut when moving to other companies.

My 2 cents without any actual thought or contribution. Those statistics aren't actually the average.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

The average salary I am talking about is the average for new aero grads from my university, not national averages. My universities grads go overwhelmingly to midwest companies (and this plant was in the midwest) so cost of living is essentially the same between where our average new grads work and this company.

The average from my school is within the bottom 20% of US labor statistics for my field but my field is heavily skewed by the concentration of aeros on the west coast and a really old workforce. So the average for my school is actually quite decent and also reflects midwest COL and yet the company came in well below average.


and I don't know your friends but if they are anything like mine, 90%+ of them did not negotiate at all. Zeligs link got that right about engineers (imo) - they just don't negotiate and/or suck at it. Only one of my friemds even tried and she caved without the company even budging but at least she tried. Not a single one of my other friends even got that far.

 

[Kennigit]

How dependable is the new aero grads salary of your school?

honest question because my school just had a survey we filled out in one of our classes that is self reported and obviously takes no account for 401k or relocation or other benefits and such, and I never really saw results of that from previous years [if even available]. There's probably some readily accessible "mech E department" salary reported that I wouldn't really trust the validity.

like I would think the data for the past 5-10 years is pretty garbage actually upon graduation in particular due to the high number of people that take 3-12 months or longer to get a job. Some random person getting a [self reported] higher starting salary is the more likely outcome of collecting data right at graduation, and not the true average as people trickle in and have that data never reported.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Valid points all around. All I have is anecdotal evidence based on what my friends make that is in line with the 'official' average with a few oddball outliers in either direction. No one I know who has graduated was unemployed longer than 3 months beyond graduation either. But it is all anecdotal.

We are required to report internship and co-op salaries to get registered for the following semester and are asked (not required) to report full time salaries during our final assessment exam. By that point most of my friends had jobs. Again, anecdotal.

But I am willing to use any reputable numbers to make my case anyways. It was frustrating though to spend time and effort researching my numbers to make a case to the have them come back with no justification or discussion of where there numbers came from.

edit: my school's forms ask all kinds of questions about non-salary benefits but oddly the statistics they share back with us are solely salary numbers

 

[Birdjaguar]

What was the value of their benefits package? That shouldn't be ignored.

What percent of the cost of your health insurance package would you pay? What is the value of that?
Do they have a 401K? what's their match?
Do they offer life insurance?
Holidays?
Paid time off?

They can add up. For example a person making $50,000 a year in our company earns the following benefits paid by the company:
Cost of employee health insurance: $5400; annual employee premium $260; +$5,160
401K match: up to 5% paid by company; +$2,500
$100,000 Life insurance policy: +$1,200
200 hours of PTO per year: @$25/hour = +$5,000

Total company paid benefits: +$13,360

The $50,000 salary is actually $63,000

Will they pay for training? Certification? Those kinds of benefits can add even more to the value you will get.

 

[Zelig]

I don't really count health insurance as a benefit, when we're hiring Americans we just eat is as a government-applied extra cost to American labour.

 

[Birdjaguar]

To the company it is a cost. To the employee it is a benefit with a specific dollar value if the premium is subsidized by the company. For my wife and I, I pay about $2,600 in health insurance premiums a year. The company pays about $8,000 to insure us. The $5,400 difference is money I don't have to spend for health insurance. The company is paying 70% of the cost of my insurance.

From a profitability stand point, I want to increase my premiums to 50%; but our goal of improving the lives of our employees dictates that we keep employee paid premiums low.

 

[Zelig]

It's a company cost only applicable for American employees, but American employees aren't benefiting an extra $8k over anyone else we pay comparably.

Like EI premiums for employees in Canada, company pays about 70%, but that's not spun as part of an employee's compensation.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

What was the value of their benefits package? That shouldn't be ignored.

What percent of the cost of your health insurance package would you pay? What is the value of that?
Do they have a 401K? what's their match?
Do they offer life insurance?
Holidays?
Paid time off?

They can add up. For example a person making $50,000 a year in our company earns the following benefits paid by the company:
Cost of employee health insurance: $5400; annual employee premium $260; +$5,160
401K match: up to 5% paid by company; +$2,500
$100,000 Life insurance policy: +$1,200
200 hours of PTO per year: @$25/hour = +$5,000

Total company paid benefits: +$13,360

The $50,000 salary is actually $63,000

Will they pay for training? Certification? Those kinds of benefits can add even more to the value you will get.

Long story short - the benefits were just OK and were entirely non-negotiable. I'm not ignorant of the cost of benefits to employers, however, if they are non-negotiable, 'standard benefits package to new hires' then the only way they have to show they value me as an employee is through salary because literally every other new grad hire will get the same benefits.

They offered me below average and then came up to average on salary and I wasn't comfortable with that.

I did consider their benefits (I read every line in the package they sent me) and did my best to compare them to other companies and knowledge of what my fellow grads have gotten. They were seriously behind in some areas, ahead a little in other areas and just ok in most areas of the benefits package. So for this reason and because they won't negotiable, the benefits were a non-issue.

 

[Birdjaguar]

It's a company cost only applicable for American employees, but American employees aren't benefiting an extra $8k over anyone else we pay comparably.

Like EI premiums for employees in Canada, company pays about 70%, but that's not spun as part of an employee's compensation.

Within a company benefits are usually the same, but they can have a real cash value for new employees when comparing different job offers or when comparing a current job to a new one. An employee who has to pay 10% of a $5,000 insurance premium is $3,000 better off than one who has to pay 70%. Benefit packages can all look the same until you translate them in a cash equivalent value. It is very easy to focus on just the salary portion of an offer and skip over the rest.

Good benefits can be made better. For example, if you can accumulate 100+ hours of PTO in a year and can cash out some or all of it over the year, then every raise you get bumps the value of all the accumulated PTO in your bank. The PTO you earned at $20/hr gets paid out to you at $25/hr. I spent my first year at my job building my PTO balance to the 200 hour limit. Now I can take 40 hours whenever I want, as cash or days off. The cash comes out at my most current pay rate and my balance stays high for emergencies. Every time I pass 200 I have to bring it down by December 31. so, I cash out enough hours to bring me down to 150 hours and get a holiday bonus.

Long story short - the benefits were just OK and were entirely non-negotiable. I'm not ignorant of the cost of benefits to employers, however, if they are non-negotiable, 'standard benefits package to new hires' then the only way they have to show they value me as an employee is through salary because literally every other new grad hire will get the same benefits.

They offered me below average and then came up to average on salary and I wasn't comfortable with that.

I did consider their benefits (I read every line in the package they sent me) and did my best to compare them to other companies and knowledge of what my fellow grads have gotten. They were seriously behind in some areas, ahead a little in other areas and just ok in most areas of the benefits package. So for this reason and because they won't negotiable, the benefits were a non-issue.

Great. Many just ignore the details of the benefits.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

One thing that complicates the issue is that if salaries are themselves opaque, then benefits are even harder to find real metrics on. Sure, sites like glassdoor and salary.com can help compare, but at best you only get a range of salaries at a company/career field to look at and nothing/next to nothing on benefits. So it can be really hard to tell if the benefits a company is offering are good as compared to other companies in your field.


And from what I've been told, most benefits packages are non-negotiable for new grads like myself anyways.