IDEA- Civfanatics Leaderhead making competition?

[Androrc the Orc]

IIRC Pheonicans were closer to Jew's than Arabs, so maybe more arabic looking with a lighter skin tone?

Actually I remember on BBC they were having a documantery on tracking the Pheonican gene. Wish I watched it, maybe I'll take a look at it in Youtube.

I would base it on the skin tone of the Lebanese. Even if there was Arabic migration to the region, IIRC the previous populations living in what is nowadays Lebanon wasn't eliminated, they probably were assimilated into Arabic culture. And thus, as they live in the region where the Phoenicians cities used to be, they probably are the ones with the highest genetic correlation to the Phoenicians.

 

[The Capo]

I think we should probably be using the term Israelite rather than "Jews." There are black Jews out there too you know.

Semetic is probably the BEST term to be using in this situation. Hoenstly though it would require a bit more work than I think you guys realize, its difficult to get the nose right, and you'd probably have to alter the eyes as well and maybe make her face a bit more "round."

Honestly I think the best bet here would simply be to retexture her to have darker skin.

 

[IgorS]

I think we should probably be using the term Israelite rather than "Jews." There are black Jews out there too you know.

Basically, you're right, but today they're all called Jews.

 

[The Capo]

Eh, no they aren't. I'm pretty sure the ancient Isrealites are still called ancient Israelites. My friend Bobby, who happens to be Jewish (and Polish) is NOT the same as an ancient Israelite. Same religion yes. But not the same.

 

[IgorS]

Eh, no they aren't. I'm pretty sure the ancient Isrealites are still called ancient Israelites. My friend Bobby, who happens to be Jewish (and Polish) is NOT the same as an ancient Israelite. Same religion yes. But not the same.

Oh, you were talking about ancient Jews. I thought you referred to the modern Indian/Chinese/Ethiopian Jews.

 

[The Capo]

Oh, you were talking about ancient Jews. I thought you referred to the modern Indian/Chinese/Ethiopian Jews.

Yeah, weren't we talking about Dido/Phoenicians/Ancient Semites?

 

[phungus420]

For the record, I did say she needs to look more semitic. And even referenced Palestinians as a modern template look, though Lebenese is probably better since someone brought it up. Dido was Pheonecian, so she was most likely a semite (though the Pheonicians were known to be traders, she very well could have had mixed ancestry), so I think she should look as such. Also she looks too much like Isabella, and is an obvious reskin.

Dido is used in almost all the big mods, so she is very worthy of being touched up, and if any of you artists pick up the project, your work will be used in mods that get thousands of downloads . So pretty please, could someone touch up this Dido model I and many others would be very greatful.

Dido

 

[IgorS]

For the record, I did say she needs to look more semitic. And even referenced Palestinians as a modern template look, though Lebenese is probably better since someone brought it up. Dido was Pheonecian, so she was most likely a semite (though the Pheonicians were known to be traders, she very well could have had mixed ancestry), so I think she should look as such. Also she looks too much like Isabella, and is an obvious reskin.

I disagree- she doesn't look that much like Isabella. She's not a reskin either. A reskin is when you take a LH and recolor it, but Dido has different clothes, she has nothing on her head and her face does look different. It is one of the best LHs out there, IMO!

 

[phungus420]

I disagree- she doesn't look that much like Isabella.

I don't know how to respond to this; because it just takes common sense to see she is built out of the Firaxis Issy model. It's plainly obvious, she doesn't look like a uniquely made model.

She's not a reskin either. A reskin is when you take a LH and recolor it, but Dido has different clothes, she has nothing on her head and her face does look different.

You're right, she's not just a reskin, poor choice of wording on my part.

It is one of the best LHs out there, IMO!

I said Dido is a grade B leaderhead. She's a good leaderhead as of now to be sure. But to me simply being above average does not make something "one of the best". Something must be superior, or A grade to even be considered as one of the best. So I simply disagree, or you have a vastly different definition of the phrase.

For reference these are some of the best leaderheads out there:

Alexander the Great
Simon Bolivar
Adolf Hitler
Ataturk

Actually most of the stuff in Ekmek's Gallery is top notch work, they look like they could have come out of Firax's kitchen. Also Capo has some outstanding models as well:

Haiwatha
Charles V

There are other examples of high quality leaderheads by other artists as well. But my point being that to be "one of the best" it should really compare to one of the leaderheads above. In other words, it should look unique, and appear as though Firaxis themselves could have produced it. Dido isn't up to that standard, she currently looks like a retooled Issabella. She's decent, but given how much use she gets she's deserving of better.

 

[IgorS]

There are other examples of high quality leaderheads by other artists as well. But my point being that to be "one of the best" it should really compare to one of the leaderheads above. In other words, it should look unique, and appear as though Firaxis themselves could have produced it. Dido isn't up to that standard, she currently looks like a retooled Issabella. She's decent, but given how much use she gets she's deserving of better.

Still completely disagree. All the LHs you mentioned don't look like those their based on because the creators did a lot of work remodeling and sculpting the face. Hiawatha, for example, is Shaka with a smaller nose and white (or maybe "red" skin). Sometimes it is enough to do something small like adding or removing a part to make a LH look unique. That's what makes Dido so great- there wasn't much done on the face, but everything's around makes you see a new leaderhead that doesn't really remind of Isabella. I'm also sure the dress was really difficult to make and what's even harder- texture. So this is what I consider a great LH. I agree it resembles the original more than lots of Ekmek's creations, but still looks better because of better texturing. This is why Ekmek now tries to remake many of his LHs adding shaders and taking more time on them. Look at the Ataturk you mentioned- v1 also didn't look like Peter (on whom he was based), but the texturing wasn't the best; v2 is one of the best because of the texturing and not only the fact you can't recognize the base.

 

[The Capo]

This thread has gone out of control! C. Roland made the original file, so I'm not sure that anyone is going to want to edit it without permission, although I have actually done that to make a few of my LHs, and I might take it up but its really doubtful considering I am making a mod right now and have taken a leave of absence from making LHs. I think your best bet is to try to learn it a little yourself (but I believe you are a bit busy too). A reskin can go a long way to make someone look different, perhaps you could try and reskin it or get someone else to reskin it and see how far that goes for you.

 

[TheLastOne36]

I agree with Phungus, Dido looks like Isabella, plain and simple. I was reluctant to add here into my mod because she was not unique.

The clothing and everything though is top notch job.

 

[IgorS]

I agree with Phungus, Dido looks like Isabella, plain and simple. I was reluctant to add here into my mod because she was not unique.

The clothing and everything though is top notch job.

You people are asking for too much! I added her to my game mainly because this LH is so good as I don't really like adding semi-mythical leaders.

 

[Androrc the Orc]

I am already quite content with the Dido we do have, but that doesn't stop me from wanting for it to be improved, where possible.

 

[phungus420]

I think your best bet is to try to learn it a little yourself (but I believe you are a bit busy too).

In modding this is generally good advice. The only way to make sure something gets done, or gets done right is to do it yourself. I've had to teach myself alot of C++ and Python to build what I envisioned. Unfortunately though one can't teach themselves artistic talent. I can't just read a book and learn how I want something to look, it requires an artists eye and imagination. This is impossible to learn, you either have it or you don't. I say and logically conclude she needs to look more semitic, but I can't envision what that means.

A reskin can go a long way to make someone look different, perhaps you could try and reskin it or get someone else to reskin it and see how far that goes for you.

No the problem is the model looks like Isabella, a reskin wol't fix that, the model needs to be adjusted. Look at it, be honest, you'll conclude the same.

I agree with Phungus, Dido looks like Isabella, plain and simple. I was reluctant to add here into my mod because she was not unique.

The clothing and everything though is top notch job.

Exactly.

You people are asking for too much! I added her to my game mainly because this LH is so good as I don't really like adding semi-mythical leaders.

Look, I'm asking a favor, you don't want to do it, that's fine. If no other artist wants to do it, that's fine also. This is a hobby, the artists who mod here are going to work on what they want to work on, all us modders do what we do because we enjoy it, it's not a job, I'm not paying anyone to do anything. I'm just asking, and pointing out why I think it would be a good project to work on, if an artist here agrees they'll do it at their leisure. I respect the Capo's response, it's honest and logical, it's not what I want to hear, but I respect his decision.

You on the other hand are either being cognitively disonant, and ignoring reality, and trying to trick me into believing a falsehood because you yourself believe it. Or you're just lying to me. Either way it's annoying. You don't want to work on the model, that's fine, I'm just a dude making a request, you're under no obligation to fulfill my request, I'd be an prick to assert otherwise. But don't tell me untruths to justify your position. Dido looks like Isabella, she does not look like anything that would have come out of Firaxi's kitchen. All it takes is common sense to see this.

 

[mechaerik]

I have to agree with IgorS here: Dido looks fine too me, not too much like Izzy, other than the animation.

 

[The Capo]

No the problem is the model looks like Isabella, a reskin wol't fix that, the model needs to be adjusted. Look at it, be honest, you'll conclude the same.

You'd be surprised at how wrong you are here, there are plenty of examples but I don't want to give away trade secrets. Having said that I understand your point. The fact of the matter on this LH, though, is that it was altered. It isn't a straight up reskin of Isabella actually, the face is different if you look at it closely. I will agree though that the changes that were made to it are barely noticeable, and I don't think the effort was to necessarily give her a Semeitc look, but rather to make enough changes to the model to say it isn't just a reskin.

And then there is this statement, which is why I will agree to do it for you....

Look, I'm asking a favor, you don't want to do it, that's fine. If no other artist wants to do it, that's fine also. This is a hobby, the artists who mod here are going to work on what they want to work on, all us modders do what we do because we enjoy it, it's not a job, I'm not paying anyone to do anything. I'm just asking, and pointing out why I think it would be a good project to work on, if an artist here agrees they'll do it at their leisure. I respect the Capo's response, it's honest and logical, it's not what I want to hear, but I respect his decision.

Not enough people understand this, or have this mentality. I appreciate when somebody does.

You might not like what comes out of the other end though, because I am honestly not as good at making LHs as people seem to think. I'm good at making it look like I am, which I guess doesn't make sense, but to me it does.

Now, keep in mind this will take quite some time. I am working on a mod right now and I won't be upgrading this LH until I get to that point in the mod's development. I don't get to the new LH part until after I flavor the civs and add the new ones, so there will be quite a waiting period on this LH along with all of the others I am making, which is over ten plus the upgrades to the ones I have already made. But I will make her look more semetic for you.

I think the LH is usable as is, but this LH has been around for long enough. And it could certainly be better than it is, and if you look at the DL tally for this LH and compare it to others it is one of the most downloaded, so perhaps it is time for Dido to get some plastic surgery.

END OF DISCUSSION PLEASE.

 

[phungus420]

Thanks Capo, looking forward to see what you come up with.

 

[civ editor11]

Is there one we could use as John F. Kennedy or am I going to have to learn how to make him?

 

[The Capo]

I had suggested retexturing CFK's Bartlett into John F. Kennedy.

But honestly why? He wasn't a great President. I'm saying this and I'm an ardent Democrat!