Integration Ruined Schools

[Bill3000]

You are wrong. People may harbor racist attitudes and even speak out in a racist manner, but almost all of the structural racist underpinnings of the pre 1960s America are gone. People are slower to change and usually have to die off to see their attitudes replaced. The sixties hardened the baby boomers into two groups: those who embraced the changes of of that time and those who didn't. Today's tea partiers are often of the latter group. When the baby boomers die out, much of the old racism will die with them. It is your job to keep it from being replaced by some new racism.

I think you interpreted me wrong. I did say that the openly racist society has been abolished. However, American society, in schools and communities, is as segregated today as it was in the 60s. The difference is that it is not legally mandated. This is a statistical fact.

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

I have a hard time believing that all of the Republicans agreed.
I definately don't agree with him at all.

 

[GoodGame]

I have a hard time believing that all of the Republicans agreed.
I definately don't agree with him at all.

I think Minnesota is special.


I'd add that I find it hard to believe Minneapolis was destroyed, yet still exists.

 

[Formaldehyde]

You are wrong. People may harbor racist attitudes and even speak out in a racist manner, but almost all of the structural racist underpinnings of the pre 1960s America are gone. People are slower to change and usually have to die off to see their attitudes replaced. The sixties hardened the baby boomers into two groups: those who embraced the changes of of that time and those who didn't. Today's tea partiers are often of the latter group. When the baby boomers die out, much of the old racism will die with them. It is your job to keep it from being replaced by some new racism.

I used to think that was true. That when the WWII generation finally died attitudes would immensely change. While it is no longer PC to be an overt racist or bigot, both seem to be quite cyclical in nature. They just don't seem to die out.

Just look at how much Islamophobia has resulted from 9/11. It doesn't take much at all for people to relapse into provincial attitudes from the past.

 

[Cutlass]

Not to mention all the racism evident in the immigration debate.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I think you interpreted me wrong. I did say that the openly racist society has been abolished. However, American society, in schools and communities, is as segregated today as it was in the 60s. The difference is that it is not legally mandated. This is a statistical fact.

I used to think that was true. That when the WWII generation finally died attitudes would immensely change. While it is no longer PC to be an overt racist or bigot, both seem to be quite cyclical in nature. They just don't seem to die out.

Just look at how much Islamophobia has resulted from 9/11. It doesn't take much at all for people to relapse into provincial attitudes from the past.

Not to mention all the racism evident in the immigration debate.

In general, I don't like to play the "age" card, but at times it is appropriate. Your perspectives are too short and you cannot see what has actually changed since since 1960. What you see as obvious racism today is far tamer than the racism of the 50s. And the racism of the 50s was improved over that of 1900. Housing and school statistics may show high levels of segregation, and that can appear to be racist until you actually experience a structurally racist culture where the lines are hard and mobility across them impossible.

The fact that you see today's situation as racist is a good thing; it keeps us pushing ahead and making progress. 20 years ago we didn't hate Muslims and 20 years from now we probably won't either. In the 1950s and 60s we hated Asians/Japanese; by the 1990s we loved them. Even as our love/hate relationships with different peoples changes, we have become far more accepting as a society. Interracial dating and marriage is accepted and often expected. All but the most staunch bastions of white power have been breached. For those who hold feelings of racial superiority there are fewer places for them to hide.

 

[Japanrocks12]

Nobody denies that people are less racist now than they were back then, but I would argue that we still have a long ways to go before we get to the minimum acceptable racism level of society.

 

[Formaldehyde]

In general, I don't like to play the "age" card, but at times it is appropriate.

You certainly can't play the age card with me. I lived through the Vietnam Era / Age of Aquarius when we were going to abolish racism and bigotry once and for all. That is, at least until the Vietnam War ended when everything basically went back to normal.

Racism and bigotry is very much still alive in the US and elsewhere. It has merely submerged to avoid being castigated by the politically correct. Now, racists and bigots use code phrases and dog whistles to rationalize exactly the same positions they held in the past. The Southern strategy is an excellent example it is alive and well.

And hatred of Japanese and other Asians was primarily due to existing bigotry and the massive propaganda campaign launched against the Japanese during WWII. But you are right. They have finally elevated themselves as the Irish and the Italians did before them. Nowadays, the bigotry is primarily directed at Muslims and Hispanics, and the perennial favorites, the blacks.

Nobody denies that people are less racist now than they were back then, but I would argue that we still have a long ways to go before we get to the minimum acceptable racism level of society.

Indeed, it has decreased. It used to be pervasive and quite open in the South. Now, people only discuss it if they think you are "one of them", and many of their children aren't bigoted at all from being exposed to blacks and Latinos in the public schools.

But the racist and bigoted attitudes are still obviously there with a sizable portion of the population. Islamophobia and immigration, as Cutlass pointed out, are two excellent examples.

 

[Birdjaguar]

You certainly can't play the age card with me.

How old are you?

 

[Japanrocks12]

I think he's in his forties.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Close enough.

My draft number was 290. I got drunk celebrating that night...

 

[Birdjaguar]

Close enough.

My draft number was 290. I got drunk celebrating that night...

My number was 273. But since you did actually get a number, Mr Benny, I guess it makes you "39".

 

[Formaldehyde]

Exactly.

And welcome to the club!

But I was actually in no threat to go even if I had gotten a low number. I was part of the very last year of the lottery. Nobody from my year was drafted. But I certainly didn't know that at the time.

 

[Thoughtful Thug]

You are wrong. People may harbor racist attitudes and even speak out in a racist manner, but almost all of the structural racist underpinnings of the pre 1960s America are gone. People are slower to change and usually have to die off to see their attitudes replaced. The sixties hardened the baby boomers into two groups: those who embraced the changes of of that time and those who didn't. Today's tea partiers are often of the latter group. When the baby boomers die out, much of the old racism will die with them. It is your job to keep it from being replaced by some new racism.

Yeah, I am still keeping my fingers crossed that when they do in fact die off, even negative views about marijuana too with go with them to the grave.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I thought for certain it would be legal by now. But I never saw the Reagan years coming and the pendulum start to swing the other direction.

Now, we have intelligent design and a large number of Americans who even want to eliminate abortion. Modern countries shouldn't be going backwards into the past. Achievements are difficult enough without having to repeat history.

 

[Thoughtful Thug]

Well you can't simply kill em off, now can you?

I remember Daniel Dennet lecture about memes. It perfectly illustrate how ideas are nothing but parasites that continue to exists as long as there are hosts carrying them and passing them down in generations.

http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_dennett_on_dangerous_memes.html

 

[Birdjaguar]

As I see it, the sixties completely undid the western world's cultural status quo and it was a rather small segment of the population that laid the groundwork for a major shift in thinking. The Reagan 80s rebalanced things politically, but more importantly, it ended the cold war which allowed the most important ideas of the sixties and seventies to spread easily into counties that had been behind the Iron Curtain. I'm hoping that the extremism of the Right will force the need for fiscal responsibility to the forefront as they fade in political influence. Religion is far too entrenched in all cultures to disappear any time soon. It is too important to too many people. But it will have to change and adapt to a world that will be very far from the 20th C very soon.

The cultural details of things like drug legalization or abortion or gay marriage are not very important except to those who have attached personal importance to them. In the big picture they will soon be footnotes in the history books.

 

[Cutlass]

How can the extremism of the right force fiscal responsibility when one of the primary hallmarks of it is fiscal recklessness?

 

[GoodGame]

How can the extremism of the right force fiscal responsibility when one of the primary hallmarks of it is fiscal recklessness?

Because tap dancing trumps logic and memory.

Spoiler :

 

[Singularity]

As I see it, the sixties completely undid the western world's cultural status quo and it was a rather small segment of the population that laid the groundwork for a major shift in thinking. The Reagan 80s rebalanced things politically, but more importantly, it ended the cold war which allowed the most important ideas of the sixties and seventies to spread easily into counties that had been behind the Iron Curtain. I'm hoping that the extremism of the Right will force the need for fiscal responsibility to the forefront as they fade in political influence. Religion is far too entrenched in all cultures to disappear any time soon. It is too important to too many people. But it will have to change and adapt to a world that will be very far from the 20th C very soon.

The cultural details of things like drug legalization or abortion or gay marriage are not very important except to those who have attached personal importance to them. In the big picture they will soon be footnotes in the history books.

I think racism and segregation are footnotes compared to the deficit in universal human rights today. A lot of the segregationists and obvious racists use this deficit of individual freedoms and basic human rights as a crutch to shore up their otherwise useless argumentation, and the sad thing is that they're right and a lot of liberals and integrationists dance a weird ballet between integration, understanding and acceptance without dealing with the unpleasant statistics of repression of basic human rights and culturally flavored religious dogma that are extremely resilient to change. And this argumentation is hard to reverse if you where to magically eradicate all forms of racism and segregationists in modern western societies.

Social inertia will make China an unpleasant place for individualists and equally so Pakistan an unpleasant place for an atheist for many generations to come. While racism is a marginalized movement in modern western society with little or no impact on everyday life unless we allow it to be so.

It's much easier however to take an active stance against segregationists and racists because you can actually do something against that and argument against it. While social inertia can't really be fought with anything but the same language as the segregationists and racists use, which off course wouldn't be very PC Besides, the racists doesn't have cheap Ipads and millions of gallons of oil to lube our way of life.