Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[Kozmos]

In other news, after a recent dispute between Unilever and Tesco over the price of Marmite, allegedly due to the precipitous fall in the value, some bright spark produced this hilarious Venn diagram:

The Marmite must flow. He who controls the Marmite, controls the UK.

 

[Takhisis]

Had a quick look at fishing
The UK lost most of it fishing grounds because they were fishing in Icelandic waters which ended once Exclusive economic zones were expanded out to 300km off shore.
Current policies for Fishing are set by each sovereign nation, with quotas and restrictions. The UK has the second highest qouta for fishing in the EU currently

And Iceland has access to the EEA which specifically excludes fisheries.

 

[FriendlyFire]

And Iceland has access to the EEA which specifically excludes fisheries.

That is true.
Iceland also pays to access the EEA, is part of Schengen and has no decision making powers.
Which is kind of the "soft brexit" option.

 

[Lohrenswald]

Oh, stop being melodramatic.

mate chill

 

[EnglishEdward]

Had a quick look at fishing
The UK lost most of it fishing grounds because they were fishing in Icelandic waters which ended once Exclusive economic zones were expanded out to 300km off shore.

They were international, not UK, fishing grounds until Iceland's exclusion was recognised.

Current policies for Fishing are set by each sovereign nation, with quotas and restrictions. The UK has the second highest qouta for fishing in the EU currently

The details have changed over the years. However allocation to nations meant little when non
UK citizens could find UK postal addresses to claim residence at and thereby fish the UK catch.

I dont know what is going to change by the UK Leaving the EU, I suppose you could increase qoutas within your own EEZ but that will only accelerate depletion.
The UK could get away with some increase but remember that the UK is the smaller trading partner, so any blowback from the EU is likely to hurt the UK more then the EU.

Nothing unless they order the appropriate ships for the Royal Navy.

Consider that nuclear submarines with ICBMs won't stop Basque poaching boats,
but they may inadvertently sink a few unucky Irish trawlers.

And it is not the size of the dog in the fight that counts, but the size of the fight in the dog.
I can remember living through how little Iceland saw off the UK in the Cod War,
albeit aided by the competence of our own ministers e.g. Roy Hattersley.

 

[Arakhor]

The details have changed over the years. However allocation to nations meant little when non UK citizens could find UK postal addresses to claim residence at and thereby fish the UK catch.

People are gaming the system - throw out the system!!

 

[EnglishEdward]

Exactly, why we voted Leave.

 

[Arakhor]

That was not supposed to be taken seriously. You clearly don't think too much of your fellow Leavers.

 

[Ajidica]

I was reading in the BBC a couple of days ago that May isn't going to be submitting the Brexit negotiations to a vote by Parliament. While I'm sure that is technically legal in the UK, isn't that massively out of line with established principles in the UK in that May's government was elected and when the general election was held the Tories didn't have a mandate for Brexit?
Is there any chance of her going through with this or is she trying to scare the pro-Europe Tories and anti-Corbyn Labour MPs into cooperating in the process? (So she can blame them when Brexit leads to the equivalent of a dumpster fire in your back yard.)

 

[EnglishEdward]

I was reading in the BBC a couple of days ago that May isn't going to be submitting the Brexit negotiations to a vote by Parliament. While I'm sure that is technically legal in the UK,

Theresa May has already received agreement, in the form of a clear instruction,
from the UK Electorate in the referendum of 23 June 2016 to start negotiations.

If the outcome of the negotiations is such that the parties can recommend proceeding
and if it constitutes an ongoing binding treaty, I have no doubt that both the UK and
the EU Parliaments will debate it at great length and then vote on ratifying it (or not).

If it is not ratified, the UK leaves 2 years after formal application under article 50.

isn't that massively out of line with established principles in the UK in that May's government was elected

I rather think that the three stages of: (a) approval in principle, (ii) negotiation, and (iii) ratification are the world normal for this.

and when the general election was held the Tories didn't have a mandate for Brexit?

The later Referendum vote provided the mandate.

Is there any chance of her going through with this or is she trying to scare the pro-Europe Tories and anti-Corbyn Labour MPs into cooperating in the process?

The UK Parliament will debate the issue numerous times. I rather think Theresa May has simply decided to resist Remoaner
obstruction who see the vote as an opportunity to introduce a parliamentary veto to negotiations following the referendum.
The line they are taking is that the Prime Minister is not to be permitted to submit the application to leave
until they have approved the negotiation strategy, and so by not approving that, they delay Brexit indefinitely.

She is quite amenable to updating Parliament but won't have disgruntled Parliamentarians micromanaging the process.
If she does that, they will either insert demands that are impossible for the EU to accept or delay matters indefinitely.

(So she can blame them when Brexit leads to the equivalent of a dumpster fire in your back yard.)

It is the other way around, by using the Crown perogative Theresa May risks being blamed if things go belly up.
If she lets Parliament micromanage, she can blame them, but unlike most of them, she has a conscience and a sense of duty.

I rather think that Theresa May just wants to get on with things.

And the fact of the matter is that lines are hardening to the point that there is not really a great deal to negotiate on.

 

[Arakhor]

"Micromanage" is the new Leave term for Parliament wanting to do its own job, apparently.

Theresa May has a conscience?? Maybe, but it's not what most people would expect it to be. She has money for Hinckley Point and for fracking and other business stuff, but not for the NHS, it seems. Wasn't one of the Leave promises extra cash for the NHS? Maybe not - I don't think it was mentioned very often.

 

[Takhisis]

Theresa May has already received agreement, in the form of a clear instruction,
from the UK Electorate in the referendum of 23 June 2016 to start negotiations

Well, no. It was a non-binding vote, and there was no ‘mandate’ for negotiations. Only for leaving.

It was poorly worded at best, but then the current crop of politicians in the UK is particularly poor.

 

[aelf]

Theresa May has a conscience?? Maybe, but it's not what most people would expect it to be. She has money for Hinckley Point and for fracking and other business stuff, but not for the NHS, it seems. Wasn't one of the Leave promises extra cash for the NHS? Maybe not - I don't think it was mentioned very often.

I thought it's clear by now that immigration is the primary issue behind Brexit? Brexiters apparently don't care about all the other promises because they voted Leave just to stop them foreigners.

 

[FriendlyFire]

They were international, not UK, fishing grounds until Iceland's exclusion was recognised.

The details have changed over the years. However allocation to nations meant little when non
UK citizens could find UK postal addresses to claim residence at and thereby fish the UK catch.

Nothing unless they order the appropriate ships for the Royal Navy.

Consider that nuclear submarines with ICBMs won't stop Basque poaching boats,
but they may inadvertently sink a few unucky Irish trawlers.

And it is not the size of the dog in the fight that counts, but the size of the fight in the dog.
I can remember living through how little Iceland saw off the UK in the Cod War,
albeit aided by the competence of our own ministers e.g. Roy Hattersley.

So the UK is licensing to other EU countries I assume selling the UK fishing qoutas to EU nationals. My question is Why is this the EU fault ?
And Why is leaving the EU going to fix the problem of Fishing monoploy ?
Cant the UK just you know change Laws since each soverign nation is allowed under EU Law to distribute its own qoutas ?

Under the current EU rules, foreign-owned trawlers can access the UK quota as long as they sail under the British flag - a practice known as 'quota hopping'.
All of the Spanish fishermen licensed by Marine Scotland are from the north-west Galicia region.
The largest quota belongs to skipper Manuel Otero Eijo, of La Coruna, whose UK-registered trawler Brosme has 14,514 FQA units under two separate licences.

He is entitled to land almost 1,000 tonnes of deep sea shark, along with 220 tonnes of hake, 110 tonnes of ling and smaller catches of around 30 other species.

He said: "It turned into a riot and 100 fish dock workers attacked us and threw the cameras into the dock. I hid behind a fish barrel but one of the cameramen ended up in hospital."

Last night Holyrood ministers said there were key tests - including landing any catch in the UK, having crew in residence in the country or incurring operating expenditure in Britain and Northern Ireland - licensees had to pass to be granted access to our fishing grounds.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/67...fish-Quotas-worth-65m-surrendered-trawlers-EU

According to the group's analysis, three huge trawler firms now hold 61 per cent of the entire English fishing quota through a complex chain of subsidiaries. Meanwhile, it says "small-scale fishers, the lifeblood of the UK’s fishing industry, are being elbowed out of business".

According to the group's analysis, three huge trawler firms now hold 61 per cent of the entire English fishing quota through a complex chain of subsidiaries. Meanwhile, it says "small-scale fishers, the lifeblood of the UK’s fishing industry, are being elbowed out of business".

According to the group's analysis, three huge trawler firms now hold 61 per cent of the entire English fishing quota through a complex chain of subsidiaries. Meanwhile, it says "small-scale fishers, the lifeblood of the UK’s fishing industry, are being elbowed out of business".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-has-the-rights-to-catch-1500-tonnes-of-fish/

 

[Arwon]

I don't think the UK is going to have to worry about fishing quotas in Scottish waters for very long

 

[Gigaz]

I was reading in the BBC a couple of days ago that May isn't going to be submitting the Brexit negotiations to a vote by Parliament. While I'm sure that is technically legal in the UK, isn't that massively out of line with established principles in the UK in that May's government was elected and when the general election was held the Tories didn't have a mandate for Brexit?
Is there any chance of her going through with this or is she trying to scare the pro-Europe Tories and anti-Corbyn Labour MPs into cooperating in the process? (So she can blame them when Brexit leads to the equivalent of a dumpster fire in your back yard.)

Theresa May needs a consent of the Commons to repeal the European communities act of 1972 which would turn existing EU law into British law when Britain leaves the EU. I don't know what would happen if the Commons don't ratify it, but I guess May would delay the Brexit process until they do.
Then there's still a legal battle whether it is actually technically legal that May initiates the Brexit or whether that must be an act of parliament. From what I've heard the outcome is open, but if May cannot act on her own that would make Brexit much more difficult and likely delay it by years.

 

[EnglishEdward]

So the UK is licensing to other EU countries I assume selling the UK fishing qoutas to EU nationals. My question is Why is this the EU fault ?
And Why is leaving the EU going to fix the problem of Fishing monoploy ?
Cant the UK just you know change Laws since each soverign nation is allowed under EU Law to distribute its own qoutas ?

A key principle of the EU is that there is free migration of member state nationals within the EU and
that member state governments must not discriminate against other member states nationals or companies.

This is inscribed in the various EU treaties and laws which take precedent over member state laws.

The UK government is, while remaining in the EU, therefore not free to allocate the UK part of
the EU fishing grounds exclusively to UK nationals. The only available remedy is to leave the EU.

 

[Takhisis]

I think your reasoning is faulty there, Edward.

 

[FriendlyFire]

A key principle of the EU is that there is free migration of member state nationals within the EU and
that member state governments must not discriminate against other member states nationals or companies.

This is inscribed in the various EU treaties and laws which take precedent over member state laws.

The UK government is, while remaining in the EU, therefore not free to allocate the UK part of
the EU fishing grounds exclusively to UK nationals. The only available remedy is to leave the EU.

That creates several new problems, UK fishing fleets buy qoutas and access other EU Nation fishing grounds, including accessing EU ports to offload UK fish catches.
Currently the UK has 13% EEZ but has 30% fishing qoutas and will need to negosiate new qoutas again

In fact the EU suggest that UK adopt the EU Policy for allocating more of the fishing qoutas to many smaller vessals instead the UK Chooses to allocate fishing qoutas purely based on economic considerations
I have a feeling even if the Brexiters pass the law forcing the entire UK qouta to be caught by "UK Nationals" only, it wont fix the real problem, the large foreign fishing fleet already employ UK nationals, they would easily be able to comply with that new regulations no problem.

This is not an EU decision. The fact that a single giant Dutch-owned vessel nets a quarter of the English quota (6% of the UK total) might be shocking, especially considering the UK’s quota is in theory shared between more than 6,000 vessels, but the UK government could easily change how it allocates fish. In fact, the alternative allocation systems suggested by some pro-Brexit groups are already in place elsewhere in Europe.

http://theconversation.com/what-would-brexit-really-mean-for-the-uks-fishing-industry-56312
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-fishing-quota-Holland-holds-23-permits.html

 

[innonimatu]

I don't think the UK is going to have to worry about fishing quotas in Scottish waters for very long

I don't think you grasp the power dynamics within the UK. The SNP is doing everything right to collapse in the next elections. And good riddance.