Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[Lohrenswald]

UK makes things worse by joining, is this so bloody hard to understand

pedantry doesn't make you cool

 

[Takhisis]

You haven't explained how the UK makes things worse.

 

[Lohrenswald]

maybe because I didn't think you needed to get things in with a tea spoon

seems I was wrong

 

[Lexicus]

UK makes things worse by joining, is this so bloody hard to understand

pedantry doesn't make you cool

It is for me. Also I don't see how I am being pedantic by asking that.

You haven't explained how the UK makes things worse.

^

 

[Takhisis]

maybe because I didn't think you needed to get things in with a tea spoon

seems I was wrong

We're discussing Britain. Tea spoons are essential.

 

[JohannaK]

I think I got it. Lohrenswald hates the EU, so UK joining makes him hate the UK by extension (?)

 

[JohannaK]

Okay this is what EU more or less is as I see it

Federal europe - That is working agains national sovereignty and national democracy (which admittedly isn't the greatest thing ever but I contend is more democratic than intranational quatsch), as well as ending what for many countries has been a long and hard struggle for independence.

Neoliberalism - to benefit the upper classes and corporations, at the expense of the working classes. Freedom of movement is not expressed as movement of people, but of labour force.

This also works to change the prevelant thoughts for the worse, I'd say. At the expense of things like compadery, sharing and cooperation, liberal ideas on things like competition, isolationist individualism and a nonsense idea of progress works to make the human experience worse.

Free trade is also a bad thing. It works to hinder the poor, and furthers all the bad things about globalism: environmental, societal etc.

Now sure I am a lazy sod in one of the richest countries, I could probably ignore all this and surf effortlessly and thoughtlessly on top of this the rest of my life, but that is ethically despicable and it would be objectivily better if I killed myself

Your objection to federal europe enshrines independence and national struggle as an end in itself, which is problematic. This from a Catalan independentist.

Secondly, Neoliberalism is not inherent to the European institutions. Indeed, the sort of economic transferences and agricultural subsidies that are one of the lynchpins of Europe are not really neoliberal policies, are they? Not saying that it is not the policy of the current roster of European leaders, but the EU predates neoliberalism as we understand it.

Then, free trade has pros and cons for everyone involved, but it rarely truly exists. Nobody who claims for 'free trade' actually wants free trade, but rather they want to force their products into a market that cannot compete with them. In that sense yes, free trade is horrible, but at the same time it typically isnt all that free.

Finally, the last paragraph is hilariously naive and self-aggrandising. There are a million causes worthier of your life if you really have to lose it over something.

 

[Lohrenswald]

Your objection to federal europe enshrines independence and national struggle as an end in itself, which is problematic. This from a Catalan independentist.

But it's not a problem that federalism is out as an end in of itself?

Secondly, Neoliberalism is not inherent to the European institutions. Indeed, the sort of economic transferences and agricultural subsidies that are one of the lynchpins of Europe are not really neoliberal policies, are they? Not saying that it is not the policy of the current roster of European leaders, but the EU predates neoliberalism as we understand it.

If neoliberals can bend the laws to benefit them, they will

The practice doesn't need its charade in lawform

Then, free trade has pros and cons for everyone involved, but it rarely truly exists. Nobody who claims for 'free trade' actually wants free trade, but rather they want to force their products into a market that cannot compete with them. In that sense yes, free trade is horrible, but at the same time it typically isnt all that free.

Still bad

Finally, the last paragraph is hilariously naive and self-aggrandising. There are a million causes worthier of your life if you really have to lose it over something.

Being a stupid leech is better than being dead?
Also there are more things than EU that I care about

 

[innonimatu]

As far as I can tell, the EU would like:

That's a lot of "freedoms". Lets rephrase this, shall we?

1. Free movement of goods

Protectionism for traders.

2. Free movement of capital

Protectionism for financiers.

3. Freedom to establish and provide services

Protectionism for corporations.

4. Free movement of persons

Suppression of communal national feelings so as to preclude political organization against the points above.

5. The UK to pay its share of the costs for the EU. It's a smaller share if one is less bound to the EU, but it's still there.

Taxing people to pay for the bureaucracy enforcing all of the above.

 

[JohannaK]

But it's not a problem that federalism is out as an end in of itself?

Is it? I will concede that the EU is having trouble with its traditional narrative for the push for more integration, with the economic crisis having thrown a wrench into the machine. My point is not that federalism is good or not, but that independence is not inherently good either, and if people are willing to 'give up' some of that 'independence', there is no absolute reason that should force them to reconsider immediately.

If neoliberals can bend the laws to benefit them, they will

The practice doesn't need its charade in lawform

Moot point. It applies to virtually everybody.

Still bad

What? Free trade or actual free trade?

EDIT: the first is indeed horrible, the second does have its pros and cons, and in theory should give poorer countries an edge since cheaper labour, cheaper costs, cheaper products are supposed to be preferable to more expensive ones. Now does this incentivise cheaper prices for everyone? It would seem so, but even then what it does is level the playing field.

Being a stupid leech is better than being dead?
Also there are more things than EU that I care about

No, saying "I could be a stupid leech but here I am fighting for something I feel strongly about with half-baked incomplete arguments nobody gets" (pssst, it's because they're half-baked and incomplete) makes your actual compromise with the issue doubtful at best.

 

[W|M]

Moot point. It applies to virtually everybody.

It applies to everybody who is in a position to be able to bend, change and enforce laws, and that includes the neoliberals who run European institutions

What? Free trade or actual free trade?

EDIT: the first is indeed horrible, the second does have its pros and cons, and in theory should give poorer countries an edge since cheaper labour, cheaper costs, cheaper products are supposed to be preferable to more expensive ones. Now does this incentivise cheaper prices for everyone? It would seem so, but even then what it does is level the playing field.

Both are horrible, and ''cheaper labour'' means lower wages, which means most people are worse off. A corporation will never reduce the price of any good if it doesn't have to.

No, saying "I could be a stupid leech but here I am fighting for something I feel strongly about with half-baked incomplete arguments nobody gets" (pssst, it's because they're half-baked and incomplete) makes your actual compromise with the issue doubtful at best.

The arguments aren't half-baked and are understandable

 

[JohannaK]

Yes. Yes it does. If communists somehow got elected to run the EU, it would apply to them, too.

Re: free trade, I fundamentally agree. I mean I agree that lower wages are bad, but I am arguing that contrary to Lohrens words, it supposedly does not encroach on the poorer workers but on the richest.

 

[Verbose]

It applies to everybody who is in a position to be able to bend, change and enforce laws, and that includes the neoliberals who run European institutions

And exactly who would THAT be? Even Mario Draghi is a disciple of Robert Solow, i.e. neo-Keynsian.

Merkel and her German Christian Democrats?
They're a lot of things but not neo-liberals. In economic terms they're rather OLD liberals — "ordo-liberalismus".

Ordoliberalism is the German variant of social liberalism that emphasizes the need for the state to ensure that the free market produces results close to its theoretical potential.

So, social liberals...

You might not like liberals or market economy or anything about it, but what's with the notion that everyone is a "neo-liberal" — except the views of those guys are pretty comprehensively discredited?

If you want to criticise any part of it, might better precision be useful?

 

[Kozmos]

Protectionism for traders.

Protectionism for financiers.

Protectionism for corporations.

Suppression of communal national feelings so as to preclude political organization against the points above.

Taxing people to pay for the bureaucracy enforcing all of the above.

So how would it differ than your usual national governments if the EU was disbanded? Financiers, traders, backroom dealers will always get their cut. EU is still the most citizen/consumer friendly region in the world and where corporations have regulations to actually follow occasionally.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Alright then. But could you try to explain it to me again? What is it the UK wants

Self determination for our children, and food, houses and jobs too.

and what is it that it is willing to give in return (in your opinion, of course)?

Our lives.

As far as I can tell, the EU would like:
1. Free movement of goods
2. Free movement of capital
3. Freedom to establish and provide services
4. Free movement of persons
5. The UK to pay its share of the costs for the EU.
It's a smaller share if one is less bound to the EU, but it's still there.

This is possible both inside and outside the EU,
though the latter requires an EEC deal or similar.

And as far as I can tell, Brexit-UK would like the first
three ones, but not the 4th or 5th.

Those who voted Leave are not really interested in any of them.

Regarding (1); we would prefer not to have the approaches to the
channel tunnel blockaded by French farmers or infiltrating immigrants.

Regarding your point (3) the financial services industry would like passporting
but I doubt that the rest of the country believes any of their claims and cares
not one jot about helping the wealthy living in London become even wealthier.

Regarding your point (4); Yes, some Brits would find it nice to holiday in
Spain etc without first filling in a visa form but it is not really that critical.
We would certainly not want the wholesale deportations of the ex patriot
UK nationals, living abroard in the rest of the EU, back to the UK.

So apart from these, we are not asking for concessions.

Regarding your point (5), we don't see why we should be obliged
to pay a subscription to the golf club, after having resigned from it.
If Norway are doing that despite never joining, we are laughing loudly.

Perhaps the EU think that they are a jilted wife and entitled to alimony.

What can the UK offer in return to make the EU agree to that?

We don't make things difficult for nationals, of other EU member
states, that have already established themselves in the UK.

Visa free access for tourists to visit Stonehenge, Isaac Newton's college,
Scotland Yard and for the belgiums and french, Waterloo Station.

 

[Old Hippy]

Self determination for our children, and food, houses and jobs too.

Quote:
and what is it that it is willing to give in return (in your opinion, of course)?

Our lives.

that seems a trifle melodramatic over a Yorkshire pudding

 

[Arakhor]

Visa free access for tourists to visit Stonehenge, Isaac Newton's college, Scotland Yard and for the belgiums and french, Waterloo Station.

You are joking, right?

 

[FriendlyFire]

I dont get this Veto power, but it would be ironic if Poland Vetoed UK brexit deal. Since the leavers have complained about UK giving up sovernity to EU when it had veto powers all along.

The good news is the EU is looking to avoid a hard exit since it would damage both UK and EU economies. Some deal will be made, even at worse a limited trade agreement without free movement could be the answer

U.K. Told It Has Zero Chance of Having Brexit Cake and Eating It

The hardening position of the bloc’s 11 ex-communist members has narrowed London’s room for maneuver

Clemens Fuest, president of the Ifo economic institute in Germany, said the EU should give some leeway to the U.K. to avoid a hard break that he said would damage everyone involved.

Stretching from the Baltic to the Black Sea, the 100 million people in the 11 ex-communist states that have joined the EU since 2004 are tussling for a fair exchange of comparative advantage with their richer western counterparts. While companies from the U.K., Germany and elsewhere can snap up market share with value-added products in less-developed countries, the eastern members need free movement to trade their main advantage of cheap labor.

While a final deal has to be approved by a qualified majority comprising of 72 percent of the remaining members and 65 percent of the EU population, any member can veto the process while granting the negotiating mandate, a process that will be updated by the bloc’s leaders, Prouza said.

“There will be a very clear rule: nothing is agreed until everything is agreed,” Prouza said. “Each member state will be able to veto any part of the negotiation mandate to make sure the mandate respects the interests of all EU members.”

“Having separate deals on trade and free movement is another idea totally disconnected from reality,” Prouza said. “They are leaving, not us, so it is up to them.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ro-chance-of-having-brexit-cake-and-eating-it

 

[Silurian]

Regarding your point (4); Yes, some Brits would find it nice to holiday in
Spain etc without first filling in a visa form but it is not really that critical.
We would certainly not want the wholesale deportations of the ex patriot
UK nationals, living abroard in the rest of the EU, back to the UK.

If Uk citizens were not required to get visas to visit the EU it is very likely that the EU would want similar arrangements. But what would the arrangements be? One, two, three or six months? Some retired friends spent six weeks in Malta last winter, will they be able to do this after Brexit. What about work, if we sell a machine to a French factory will be able to send people their to set it up and train people?

If we do not want a wholesale deportation of UK immigrants to the EU the EU will also want similar arrangements. There is no national ID card in the UK and so, no register of EU nationals. Even in EU countries not all foreign nationals are registered, in Spain about 60% of UK nationals are not registered. I would not be surprised if the rate of registration in Spain has gone up since the Brexit vote. Will the UK set up a registration system and how long will it take to register everyone who is not known to the UK authorities. Most EU citizens in the UK are working and so will have national insurance numbers. So what will the rules be for determining residence, what happens if they have left or leave can they come back etc.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Yes, Silurian; there is a lot of detail to be sorted out.


The problem is people think that this all has to be negotiated.


It does not.

The UK need merely leave the EU and introduce the measures
necessary to prevent excessive further net migration to the UK.

This does not need to be at the physical entry point, but at
the point of the application to work or to obtain state benefits.
This would differ from arrangements for migrants from south asia.

The system for EU citizens is likely to operate by the UK government
insisting that all people working in the UK for more than a set number
of days, must have a valid national insurance number which could be
temporary or permanent AND by limiting state benefits to people
not permanently established in UK.

The issuing of new national insurance numbers to citizens of other EU
member states (excepting Ireland) for job categories, where we already
have enough people in the UK, would be limited to a relevant quota.

How would this work?

Well if you are a French brain surgeon, the NHS clerk would sort it all out.

If you are a Roumanian self employed taxi-driver, you might apply
to the Roumanian government to be issued with one of the, perhaps
50, national insurance numbers the UK government has supplied to
the Roumanian government for that purpose.

Rules of residence already exist for income tax purposes.

If a guest worker/temporary immigrant has a National Insurance number
for one year, they could go back home and return to the UK within that year.