Jon Stewart debates Fox News contributor ... and has a panel live fact check him!

So why not present reasonable demands on Serbia ?
Why a blank cheaque ?
The demands presented of Serbia were reasonable. Serbia was a state that was sponsoring terrorism in the Habsburg Empire and which refused point blank to cooperate in any meaningful way with the imperial investigation into the assassination conspiracy. Serbian officials - all the way up to the prime minister - lied about their contacts with the assassins and actively hid some of the plotters - the ones that would have been able to connect the Sarajevo cell with Serbian military intelligence.

And yes, it is an interesting question. Why did Britain and France offer Russia a blank check to pursue a Balkan policy of aggression and war?
Just an FYI, but I now insist on being called "Warden Commander Bhsup the Dragonborn Champion of Kirkwall" in all correspondence. Thank you in advance for complying.
"Spectre Lieutenant Commander Urdnot Bhsup Shepard, Hero of Rannoch, Avatar of All Organic Life in the History of the Galaxy"
 
The demands presented of Serbia were reasonable. Serbia was a state that was sponsoring terrorism in the Habsburg Empire and which refused point blank to cooperate in any meaningful way with the imperial investigation into the assassination conspiracy. Serbian officials - all the way up to the prime minister - lied about their contacts with the assassins and actively hid some of the plotters - the ones that would have been able to connect the Sarajevo cell with Serbian military intelligence.

And yes, it is an interesting question. Why did Britain and France offer Russia a blank check to pursue a Balkan policy of aggression and war?

Please stop your killing me :lol:

On July 2, the Saxon Ambassador in Berlin wrote back to his king that the German Army wanted Austria to attack Serbia as quickly as possible because the time was right for a general war since Germany was more prepared for war than either Russia or France.[35] On July 3, the Saxon military attaché in Berlin reported that the German General Staff “would be pleased if war were to come about now :lol::lol::lol:”.[36]

Kaiser Wilhelm II declared on July 4 that he was entirely for “settling accounts with Serbia”.[34] He ordered the German ambassador in Vienna, Count Heinrich von Tschirschky, to stop advising restraint, writing that “Tschirschky will be so good to drop this nonsense. We must finish with the Serbs :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:, quickly. Now or never!”.[34] In response, Tschirschky told the Austro-Hungarian government that same day that “Germany would support the Monarchy through thick and thin, whatever action it decided to take against Serbia. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:The sooner Austria-Hungary struck, the better”.[37] On July 5, 1914, Count Moltke, the Chief of the German General Staff, wrote that “Austria must beat the Serbs”.[35]

On the night of July 23, the Serbian Regent, Crown Prince Alexander, visited the Russian legation to "express his despair over the Austrian ultimatum, compliance with which he regards as an absolute impossibility for a state which had the slightest regard for its dignity".[94] Both the Regent and Pašić asked for Russian support, which was refused.[94] Sazonov offered the Serbs only moral support while Nicholas told the Serbs to simply accept the ultimatum, and hope that international opinion would force the Austrians to change their minds.[95] Both Russia and France, because of their military weaknesses, were most disinclined to risk a war with Germany in 1914, and hence the pressure on Serbia to accede to the terms of the Austrian ultimatum.[95] :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: Because the Austrians had repeatedly promised the Russians that nothing was planned against Serbia that summer, their harsh ultimatum did not do much to antagonize Sazonov

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_U...and_settles_on_coercive_diplomacy_with_Serbia
 
someone please make a timeline!
i want to know how the topic got to here :crazyeye:
 
As to whether or not slavery would have persisted, there are several factors as others have mentioned. The first, of course, is whether or not slavery was a profitable institution. Now that is dependent not just on the cost of the labor, but also the value of the products that the slaves were producing. So you can't say that because slavery became unprofitable in one region, with one product mix, that it would not have remained viable in another region with another product.

Picking cotton resisted automation for a long time, because it is a difficult task. The first mechanical cotton pickers were not available until after WWII. So until 1947 all cotton was being picked in the same way it was picked in 1847. So the same labor arrangements that made sense in the 1850s still applied until the 1950s. So long as the demand for cotton existed, and it did, the demand for the labor to pick that cotton existed.

So the claim that economics would have freed the slaves is, at best, not a strong claim.

And then, as others have noted, you cannot ignore the issue of culture. Slavery was far more profitable in 1860 than it was in 1780. Many, if not most of the slave holders before 1800 were rich in land and slaves, but had very little in the way of wealth other than land and slaves. In fact, many of them had to sell slaves to pay off debts, and many slaves were sold on the death of their masters to pay their master's debts. Jefferson was not alone in not freeing his slaves for the simple reason that, had he done so, he would have been bankrupt afterwards. Andrew Jackson's war against the Second Bank of the US was in no small part because his people, Southern planters, were pretty much all in debt to the banks. So they hated banks, and the 2nd Bank in particular, because those banks had power over them because of their debts. They could not free their slaves, because if they did, then they would have had to sell their land as well. And so their status as landholders, as planters, as, essentially, lords, was inseparable from their ownership of slaves. That had not changed in 1861. And there's no reason to assume that it would have.

Economics is a significant part of the story of abolition, since for several activities slavery had become inefficient, and thus even the people who may have previously supported slavery because they had a stake in those activities had no more reason to do so. But I'm sure for some activities slavery would continue to be profitable even today, so economics is not the whole story.

Abolition was very much also driven by public opinion, and public opinion was shifting very strongly against slavery since the end of 18th Century. By the late 19th Century it was untenable anywhere in the Western world. Of course it was strongly supported by the Southern slave-owners at the time of the Civil War, but even so abolitionism was advancing and IIRC for example by that time in Maryland already 75% of all slaves had been freed.

Again, I think you're overestimating the uniqueness of the US South within the American continent. The existence of an aristocratic, anti-capitalist slave-owning class is hardly unique, in fact it was the rule in all countries where African slavery was important. That class did try to keep slavery as much as it could, everywhere, but ultimately they could not stand up against the whole rest of society and the new rich industrial class, not to mention the modernized landowners who employed free labor. They were being systematically defeated since the early 19th Century, such as with the end of the slave trade (at least officially), and the trend only intensified.
 
And yes, it is an interesting question. Why did Britain and France offer Russia a blank check to pursue a Balkan policy of aggression and war?

A blank cheque or an inability to stop it happening? Russia had tried to expand into the Balkans on several occasions before the Anglo-French alliance, and the western powers had at best only been able to clean up after the fact.
 
Please stop your killing me :lol:
I can't help the fact that Wikipedia was written chiefly by people employing the tendentious and largely biased accounts of earlier historians, instead of more sober and modern approaches. Any fool can mine quotes to prove her point about a crisis. What matters are the actions that the states took.

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It is true that some leaders in the German General Staff wanted to fight a war over Serbia. This was a constant refrain in military circles in Germany. German officers believed that the combination of Russia, France, and Britain was only growing stronger with time and that if a war with the entente powers was inevitable - a view that many subscribed to - it would be better if that war came sooner, rather than later, because a later war would see Germany confronted by many times its strength as the Russian-initiated arms race reached its culmination.

The most important aspect of the crisis, though, is that at every turn the militaries of each country, save Serbia itself, were no more than advisers and agents of the political leadership. They did not force the pace. The fact that the Saxon ambassador reported pro-war sentiment among some members of the German officer corps, therefore, means very little. As it happens, despite this ostensibly aggressive intent, Germany's military mobilized last of all the major continental belligerents. It got to the point that the General Staff had to browbeat the kaiser and the chancellor with hard evidence of Russian and French secret mobilization - which was true - in order to secure agreement to any military preparations at all. For a country like Germany, whose military strategy in any war depended on early and rapid mobilization, these actions are not compatible in any way with a planned war of aggression.

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Germany's kaiser repeatedly vacillated on the subject of war between any states. Perhaps the best analysis of his personality is that he was willing to talk big when the danger of war was far, but when you bit down to the gristle, the kaiser was deeply afraid of the consequences of war and unwilling to go over the brink. He made excuses to put off fighting, he exhibited willingness to back down in most crises, and in the words of Luigi Albertini, one of the finest and earliest historians of the July Crisis, "[he] was full of bluster when danger was a long way off but piped down when he saw a real threat of war approaching."

So yes, Wilhelm talked a big game about defeating Serbia. He also, on the same day (6 July) stated that he believed that "the situation would be cleared up within a week because of Serbia's backing down" in a comment to Franz Josef, while in another discussion with Erich von Falkenhayn, Prussia's minister of war, the kaiser suggested that the period of tension in the crisis could last as long as three weeks before things died down. In narratives of the July Crisis, one is in fact persistently struck by the German political leadership's unwillingness to, well, engage in the actual crisis, and by the unrealistically pacific expectations that leadership had of things. Ententiste historians explained this as a combination of German incompetence and aggression: the Germans thought that the Serbs, Russians, and French would allow them to 'walk all over them' and were shocked to find out that this was not the reality of the situation. Fritz Fischer went so far as to account for the fact that many German leaders, especially in the military, took vacations at the beginning and middle of July 1914 with a deliberate deception plan to lull the rest of the world into a false sense of security. This explanation is, as I said earlier, extraordinarily tendentious and does not account for the facts. It fails to account for the diplomatic structure of Europe at the time, and fails to seat German actions in their proper context, namely: one of a more or less unending sequence of aggressive moves by France, Russia, and even Britain, combined with an insistent refusal among the most powerful leaders of those countries to see any Austrian or German actions, whether taken in defense or aggression, as legitimate responses to their policy.

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The first few parts of the Wikipedia quote can be accounted for with selective and biased use of sources. The final segment, on Russian and French actions, is simply out-and-out wrong. It is either born of extraordinary ignorance of the facts, or it is a deliberate lie. The most basic, fundamental reason is this: Russia and France mobilized before Germany. In Russia's case, mobilization came before Austria even dispatched the ultimatum to Serbia. Russian mobilization was secret, deliberately designed to be accomplished as early as possible in a given crisis to afford Russia's military the crucial head start that the enormous extent of its territory and the dispersion of its forces required. The extent of Russian military preparations was always suspected, but gained firm empirical evidence with Sean McMeekin's work on Russian mobilization over the last several years, in which he laid out Russia's now-infamous so-called "Period Preparatory to War". Ignoring this crucial fact is inexplicable; it is like discussing the American Civil War without noting that the Confederates fired on Fort Sumter first.

Here's a quote from one of the entente's main statesmen during the crisis, Maurice Paléologue, the French ambassador to Russia. The Russians had briefly recalled their own ambassador to France, Aleksandr Izvolsky, to consult with him; he headed back home on the evening of 25 July, coterminous with the expiry of the Austrian ultimatum against Serbia. Paléologue went with him to the Petersburg train station, and produced this remarkable quote:
Maurice Paléologue said:
There was great bustle on the platforms. The trains were packed with officers and men. This looked like mobilization. We rapidly exchanged impressions and came to the same conclusion: 'It's war this time.'
The ambassador was correct: it did not merely look like mobilization, it was mobilization. In postwar documentation, the French made the effort to try to hide the extent of Russia's early preparations for war by censoring documents, conveniently disposing of diary pages, and the like. Even Russia, during the war, altered its date of formal mobilization to make it appear as though Germany started first, and made no mention of the Period Preparatory to War. But it was impossible to hide the movement of millions of men. German military intelligence already knew of the existence of the Period Preparatory to War - it had been debated in the Russian Council of Ministers, which meant that its existence was a matter of public record - and correctly identified it as taking place in the last days of July. Germany's chancellor and kaiser, however, clung to the fact that Russia had not formally declared mobilization as a last defense against making military preparations of their own. A German agent had to smuggle a Russian mobilization placard out of Poland across the German border in order to convince Potsdam that war was at hand.

Suggesting that Russia acted as a brake on Serbia is a joke. If anything, the opposite is true. According to the work of the historian Luigi Magrini, the explanation that most accords with the facts from postwar interviews of key Serbian decision-makers is that the Serbian leadership was disposed to accept the ultimatum in its entirety on 23 July, because the Serbs felt as though no Russian support would be forthcoming. This was based, in part, on the sentiment expressed by the tsar in the quote you mined; like the kaiser, the tsar was deeply concerned about the problem of an actual war. It was news from Russia that compelled the Serbs to change this course. On the night of 24-25 July, the Serbian government took receipt of information regarding the deliberations of the Russian Council of Ministers; they found out about the Period Preparatory to War (or its effects), and learned that Russia would back Serbia with its full military force. According to Miroslav Spalajković, Serbia's ambassador to Russia, "in all circles without exception, the greatest resolve and jubilation reigns on account of the stance adopted by the tsar and his government."

The tsar vacillated, as the quote you found in Wikipedia bears out, but ultimately came down on the side of war, just like the kaiser. But when the kaiser made his decision to fight, he was confronted with a direct and imminent military threat. When the tsar made his decision to fight, he was confronted with no such threat, and was in fact embarking on a military adventure in the Balkans in which Russia was not threatened by any state and in which no Russian 'vital interests' were at stake. We see many references to Germany's ostensible "blank check" to Austria-Hungary in your Wikipedia article, yet newer research has cast considerable doubt on the mechanics of that blank check and what it actually meant for the outbreak of the war. Yet we see no references to Russia's blank check to Serbia. This does not make for a particularly accurate historical narrative.

Why did Russia support Serbia? That other, rather fundamental question generally remains unanswered by ententistes like those who wrote the Wikipedia article. This is probably because the answers to it tend to be fairly damning. Serbia was part and parcel of Russia's efforts to first freeze Austria-Hungary out of the Balkans, the country's sole and longtime sphere of influence and a region that was regarded by Habsburg decision-makers as vital to their security. Russia organized the Balkan League of 1912, the one that went to war with the Ottoman Empire over Macedonia, and its original - and enduring - purpose was as a weapon against Austria-Hungary as well.

Throughout the decade leading up to the war, the Serbian state constituted a threat to Austrian security, to the stability of its empire, and to the lives of its citizens. The Serbian government explicitly sponsored terrorism in Austrian territory up to 1909, and did so quietly afterwards. In the field of high politics and war, Serbian aggression in the years immediately before the war was wide-ranging and dramatic; Serbia invaded the Ottoman Empire and engaged in widespread massacres and war crimes during the fighting, precipitated a crisis with Bulgaria that led directly to war, and even engaged in an undeclared war with the new state of Albania before Austrian threats forced it to back down. It was the head of Serbian military intelligence that organized and directed the assassination of Franz Ferdinand; he did not do it under orders from the prime minister, but the prime minister knew about it beforehand and failed to take any actions of substance against it, then lied about his foreknowledge and prevented any retributive actions from being taken against his intelligence chief.

And yet, even with all of these black marks against Serbia, Russia backed that country to the hilt. In fact, Russian policy makers construed the 1914 crisis such that Serbia was fully in the right and that Vienna deserved no concessions whatsoever from Belgrade. This is why the Serbian government rejected the substance of the ultimatum in its technically brilliant note of 25 July. Considering that Serbia basically committed an act of war to start the crisis, this is eye-opening to say the least.

It would be going too far to suggest that the Russian government deliberately used Serbia's terrorism as a weapon against Austria-Hungary, and much too far to suggest that Russia itself plotted the assassination as an effort to lure Austria into war. That would be the sort of thing that Fischer would have said, if Fischer were on the other side of this historical debate. But while the Russian government did not know the particulars of the assassination plot, some Russian officials (like the military attaché in Belgrade) almost certainly had limited foreknowledge. More importantly, though, Russia supported Serbia in full knowledge of the sorts of actions that the Serbian government was disposed to take. The men in Russia who made the decision to support Serbia and eventually to go to war for Serbia were basically in agreement with the overriding foreign policy initiative in Belgrade, namely: that Serbia deserved to have control of a 'Greater' Serbia; that this Frankenstein's monster of a country would be cobbled together from the territory of Serbia's neighboring states; and that that territory would have to be acquired through terrorism and war.

This was not a recipe for sound, sensible mutual negotiations. It demonstrates that claims of Russia's pacific intentions are laughable.

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I would advise you, instead of reading Wikipedia, to look at the books of actual historians on the crisis. Many good ones have come out lately, and most of these tend to back what I have said. First and foremost, Christopher Clark's The Sleepwalkers, which has won near-universal academic acclaim, is a fantastic overview of both the July Crisis and the state of affairs that preceded and led to the war. Sean McMeekin has published on the subject as well, first in his The Russian Origins of the First World War and later in July 1914. These strands of scholarship are, however, not entirely new. They rely on evidence collected earlier, and expand on the conclusion of earlier historians. Luigi Albertini's multi-part history of the July Crisis, for example, was 'rediscovered' in the 1990s as historical consensus moved away from the bankrupt Fischer thesis of a German 'grab for world power' (Griff nach der Weltmacht). Paul Schroeder's work on structural factors in European high politics led him to make similar conclusions as early as the 1970s, and in more detail in the 1990s. Even Norman Rich, who has written largely textbook-style works, summarized the state of the field in 1994 as being generally one in which general consensus was that the German government was effectively 'cornered into war'.

Fischer's claim that Germany started the war would not have been possible without the experience of the Second World War; by viewing the events of 1914 through the lens of 1939, he proposed that the kaiser was relying on the same basic megalomaniacal plan as Hitler was. The scholars who agreed with him in the 1960s were buttressed by a view of national self-determination as a basic, fundamental right, and a view of Austria-Hungary as a decrepit hulk whose collapse into nation-states was inevitable. Modern historians have their own lenses for these things. They have seen the horrors of self-determination taken to its logical conclusion in the Balkan wars of the 1990s. The massacres at Srebrenica and elsewhere spawned research into Serbian war crimes in the Balkan Wars. And the experience of international terrorism in the 1990s and 2000s has reinforced an understanding of how important non-state actors could be and the sorts of actions that they could inspire. Fischer and his ilk could not see one small terrorist plot as the sort of thing that could move continents and cause wars, and decided that Germany's government had to be at the bottom of it all. 9/11 truthers apart, we have a better understanding of terrorism and its effects now.

It's important to point out that Srebrenica or 9/11 did not make Germany's decision to fight in 1914 right. We have gained perspective as to why it happened, and we can better explain it without resorting to Fischer's conspiracy theories, but either way, Germany's government opted to fight. The fact that this was essentially an 'acceptance' of Entente aggression rather than an aggressive war in and of itself does not make the slaughter of millions of human beings any more palatable. This is not about blame: all the governments of the belligerent powers of the First World War share in the blame for the war, because all of them made a decision to fight. It is instead about causation, and recognizing that the primary factor that made war much more likely was the generally aggressive policy of the Entente powers, and specifically Russian efforts to expand influence and power in the Balkans, combined with French and British support of those efforts, however far they went, for the sake of maintaining the alliance with Russia.

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In 1915, thousands of Australian, New Zealander, British, and French soldiers poured out their blood at Gallipoli in an ultimately unsuccessful campaign against Constantinople. The sense that this battle was fought for British interests, and that these interests were distinct from antipodean ones, is widely regarded as having contributed to Australian nationalism. Gallipoli was, on this reading, a British man's war and an Australian man's fight.

The reality is far more depressing. Gallipoli was, as it happened, not even a British man's war. The Empire and the Dominions - and France - sent their men to the Straits to die in support of Russian imperial goals, not even for their own imperial goals. Russian imperialism and aggression played a main role in starting the war in the first place. But they continued to shape its conduct as the fighting wore on. Constantinople and the Straits were, as the British government knew, to be consigned to the Russian Empire if they were ever to be taken. What had started out as a plan for an amphibious attack by the Russian Black Sea Fleet turned into a multinational campaign, and then the Russians decided to just let the western allies do the fighting and to use their forces in Armenia and Poland instead. Not a single Russian soldier or sailor died at Gallipoli. They didn't even get within two hundred miles of the battlefield.

I don't know about you, but if I were Australian, that sort of thing would piss me off.

This, then, was the extent to which Britain and France were implicated in Russia. Not only did British and French investors pour funds into the country ostensibly for economic development when most people knew that the money was going to the military and to military infrastructure; not only did the British and French governments continue to cling to their alliance with Russia as the Russians made increasingly aggressive moves that aggravated the diplomatic situation in Europe; not only did Britain and France willingly support and join a war for a narrow set of Russian interests in southeastern Europe that had nothing whatsoever to do with either France or Britain. Those countries didn't just join that war for Russia's sake, they ended up shouldering the burden of Russia's own planned conquests in that war.

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Now, it's true that even these days, not all authors have given up Fischer's thesis. Most recently, Max Hastings, a British journalist and occasional dabbler in military pop-history, has published Catastrophe 1914, a restatement of the claim that it was basically all Germany's fault. It is based on the same shaky logical foundation and the same tendentious misreadings of the sources that the Fischerite thesis has always been based on. If Clark's Sleepwalkers is the equivalent of Christopher Browning's Ordinary Men, then Catastrophe 1914 is Hitler's Willing Executioners: a morally despicable restatement and expansion of an increasingly discredited argument that is widely derided by the academic historical profession...yet enjoys wide circulation among the pop-history circuit and among people who were originally taught this way and who basically don't know any better.
 
Economics is a significant part of the story of abolition, since for several activities slavery had become inefficient, and thus even the people who may have previously supported slavery because they had a stake in those activities had no more reason to do so. But I'm sure for some activities slavery would continue to be profitable even today, so economics is not the whole story.

Abolition was very much also driven by public opinion, and public opinion was shifting very strongly against slavery since the end of 18th Century. By the late 19th Century it was untenable anywhere in the Western world. Of course it was strongly supported by the Southern slave-owners at the time of the Civil War, but even so abolitionism was advancing and IIRC for example by that time in Maryland already 75% of all slaves had been freed.

Again, I think you're overestimating the uniqueness of the US South within the American continent. The existence of an aristocratic, anti-capitalist slave-owning class is hardly unique, in fact it was the rule in all countries where African slavery was important. That class did try to keep slavery as much as it could, everywhere, but ultimately they could not stand up against the whole rest of society and the new rich industrial class, not to mention the modernized landowners who employed free labor. They were being systematically defeated since the early 19th Century, such as with the end of the slave trade (at least officially), and the trend only intensified.


The American South in 1960 was far more committed to slavery than it was in 1790. In 1790 many slaveholders had mixed opinions on the good of slavery. By 1860 those who still owned slaves were absolutely certain of their being in the right by doing so.

As others have pointed out, they started a war simply because there might have at some point in the distant future been government action against slave holding.
 
I can't help the fact that Wikipedia was written chiefly by people employing the tendentious and largely biased accounts of earlier historians, instead of more sober and modern approaches. Any fool can mine quotes to prove her point about a crisis. What matters are the actions that the states took.

What your saying is like Hitler whom never intended for there to be a world war 2, because he had believed Ribbontrop that the allies would never go to war over Poland. And that once Allies declared war Hitler turned to Ribbontrop with a face of rage and spat out "well what now?" And we should factor that in that Hitler was not at fault for starting ww2 but that it was the allies fault for deceiving Hitler into believing they were weak. And more to the point the people of Germany were against any new war at all, that there was a lot of antiwar sentiment in Germany.

Also Hitler had said he was a man of peace and that Germany had no more territorial demands. So clearly it was the allies fault for starting ww2. :p



World war 1 was stupid, everyones knows that the Austrian Hungry empire felt threatened by increasing population of slavs, which were perceived as a threat and inferiors race (sound familiar) So far the Austrians had kept out any slavs for higher government and any important positions, thus you had this huge internal security problem within the Austrian-Hungry empire already. With suppression and treatment of slavs. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist and all that.

I also find it hilarious that Italy one of the central powers declined to join in the attack due to Germany being the aggressor and that the alliance pact was a defensive pact only :lol: On the other hand Italy did change sides in ww2 too

Not that i think the entrente powers were faultless either.

Also Iam pretty sure charging in machine guns and the massive slaughter that was the entire world war 1 should make people angry.
 
Looking at the South in the 1960s, it is difficult to believe that slavery would have died a natural death shortly after the 1860s.
 
I wasn't even aware that this is known outside of Germany.

Not sure if it was widely distributed elsewhere at the time, but it is part of a famous series which was a major hit for BlueByte in the early 90s (Battle Isle). I owned the original Battle Isle for the Amiga, and it was an excellent game :)

One of the first (the first?) to allow for 2 player mode as well in a computer strategy game.
 
What your saying is like Hitler whom never intended for there to be a world war 2, because he had believed Ribbontrop that the allies would never go to war over Poland. And that once Allies declared war Hitler turned to Ribbontrop with a face of rage and spat out "well what now?" And we should factor that in that Hitler was not at fault for starting ww2 but that it was the allies fault for deceiving Hitler into believing they were weak. And more to the point the people of Germany were against any new war at all, that there was a lot of antiwar sentiment in Germany.

Also Hitler had said he was a man of peace and that Germany had no more territorial demands. So clearly it was the allies fault for starting ww2. :p
I'm not talking about the Second World War, I'm talking about the First. They're two entirely different things. Unfortunately, it seems as though you, the general public, and ententiste historians in general cannot tell the difference between 1914 and 1939. What Hitler did, or did not do, in the runup to the Second World War does not tell us very much about what the leaders of the Kaiserreich did or did not do in the runup to the Great War.
FriendlyFire said:
World war 1 was stupid, everyones knows that the Austrian Hungry empire felt threatened by increasing population of slavs, which were perceived as a threat and inferiors race (sound familiar) So far the Austrians had kept out any slavs for higher government and any important positions, thus you had this huge internal security problem within the Austrian-Hungry empire already. With suppression and treatment of slavs. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist and all that.

I also find it hilarious that Italy one of the central powers declined to join in the attack due to Germany being the aggressor and that the alliance pact was a defensive pact only :lol: On the other hand Italy did change sides in ww2 too

Not that i think the entrente powers were faultless either.

Also Iam pretty sure charging in machine guns and the massive slaughter that was the entire world war 1 should make people angry.
As I have just spent several posts detailing, what 'everyone knows' about history is often wrong. So it is with your understanding of Austria-Hungary. That country possessed possibly the best record of any in Europe on national and ethnic rights. Embedded in the Basic Law of the Empire and Kingdom was a fundamental recognition of the intrinsic equal rights of all the state's constituent national communities. One would find no such commitment in British-ruled Ireland, French-ruled Languedoc, German-ruled Poland, or any tsarist territories not inhabited by Great Russians.

These fairly high-minded beliefs were also married in practice to, again, a system that did a reasonably good job of allowing linguistic and cultural autonomy. There were no programs of 'Germanization'; admittedly, in the Hungarian half of the country, there were programs of 'Magyarization', but these were widely recognized as being unfair and dangerous by the rest of the country, which unfortunately lacked the legal means to get rid of them. (Franz Ferdinand, the assassinated archduke, had plans to reform this somehow when he finally reached the throne, and believed he could use the 1917 renegotiation of the Austro-Hungarian Ausgleich agreement as a tool to do this. His plans were widely known and Gavrilo Princip, his assassin, confirmed before an Austrian court that it was precisely because the archduke was regarded as being sympathetic to Slavic nationalities that the Black Hand made him its target.) You claim that Slavs did not hold office in Austria-Hungary, which is out-and-out wrong on the face of it. Czechs and Poles frequently ascended to the highest levels of government. In 1914, for example, Leon Biliński, a noted Pole, was head of Austria's finance ministry and doubled as the political governor of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Contrast this with the behavior of the Kingdom of Serbia's government toward other national communities. When Serbia conquered large parts of Ottoman Macedonia in 1912-13, Serbian troops were responsible for several massacres of civilians in the new lands. For the most part, they killed Muslims, although they were fairly indiscriminate and on one occasion apparently started slaughtering people because there was a minaret in the village. No language other than Serbian could be brooked. Famously, the Serbian crown prince traveled to part of newly conquered Macedonia and asked villagers what language they spoke. If it was "Bulgarian" - or, really, anything other than Serbian - he would respond, "no, you don't; [fornicate] your mother". Languages exist on a sort of continuum of mutual intelligibility, and nowhere is this more obvious than in the Slavic-speaking populations of Eastern and Southern Europe. As far as the Serbs were concerned, however, there were a few boxes you could fit everybody into neatly, and the job was in compelling everyone to identify as being in the Serbian box.

Hell, even the stories of national 'repression' by Austria-Hungary are utterly bogus. Serbian propagandists - and later, Entente ones - liked to claim that Bosnians were Serbs that were unjustly ruled by the iron fist of Habsburg military force. It's strange how they couldn't actually point to instances of concrete repression in that case. In fact, Bosnia-Herzegovina was Vienna's idea of a model province, a way to demonstrate the positive aspects of being in the Empire. From 1878 onward Vienna poured millions of crowns into infrastructure improvements, agricultural expansion, and industrial investment. It paid off; the only thing that the Empire didn't really do a good job of modernizing in Bosnia was the education system, and that was not for lack of effort or money, either. (And it still resulted in Bosnia being far more literate than Serbia; even in Belgrade, illiteracy was through the roof in 1914.)

In 1914-15, after the first Habsburg attacks on Serbia were repelled, the Serbian army invaded Bosnia with the presumption that it would be greeted as a liberating army. Oddly enough, the people of Bosnia, by and large, weren't really interested in turning their backs on modern amenities and cultural equality. Serbian troops got basically no local support, and were outnumbered and outgunned anyway. They were pushed out before they reached Sarajevo.

It's all well and glib to talk about how one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. The members of the Black Hand certainly considered themselves freedom fighters of a sort. But then again, so too did the white men who fought in the Confederate military (this is a perhaps quixotic effort to turn the subject of the discussion back to the original thread topic), and so did the Sudeten and Austrian Germans who joined their countries' Nazi Parties. When you consider the things that the Black Hand was actually after, and the things that the Black Hand actually did, it is difficult for me to see how anybody can seriously consider its actions instances of "freedom-fighting". Perhaps a die-hard nationalist Serb might.

The narrative of a corrupt, incompetent, oppressive Austrian Empire gained a great deal of currency shortly before the war in the Entente countries precisely because it offered the perfect justification for attacking and destroying that empire. If Austria-Hungary was destined for the ash-heap of history, terrorists attacking it - or entire armies attacking it - couldn't be all that bad. If it was oppressive and doomed, then its legitimate foreign policy rights and privileges appeared to be not so legitimate after all. That this narrative had virtually nothing to do with what was actually happening on the ground in the Empire did not matter.

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This is...even more decidedly unrelated to the ostensible thread topic, but the Italian government's decision not to join the Central Powers in 1914 had little to do with the terms of the Triple Alliance. One can very well argue the terms of the casus foederis back and forth; people certainly did it in 1914. Enough Italians believed that they would fight, incidentally, that Luigi Cadorna, the chief of staff of the Italian army, almost mobilized the military for a war with France before he was told to stand down by the foreign minister and the prime minister.

The reason the casus foederis did not matter is that Italy's government had already nullified it in previous negotiations. By 1914, Italy had signed secret conventions with France and Britain explicitly stating that the Italian government did not consider the Triple Alliance to operate against either of those countries. In short, the alliance was useless for the only circumstance that the Germans and Austrians could possibly have wanted it for.

The usual shorthand for this sort of thing is 'sacred egoism', a phrase most often applied to Italian foreign policy in this period. It's a reference that basically argues that most major Italian diplomatic decisions were motivated not by international legal documents or agreements between states, but by moment-to-moment calculations of what the national interest was and how it could be best extorted out of other countries. As you noted, the Italian government was well known for switching sides when it appeared to be convenient or necessary; although I don't think that the World War II example really applies, there are enough other examples that the point is easily made.

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How combat happened in the First World War is decidedly more complicated - in most instances - than "a bunch of clueless brave soldiers are ordered into a hail of machine-gun fire and are cut down to a man". It would require a metric [crap]ton of space to even come close to detailing how it worked to greater accuracy. I would like to point out, however, that First World War units suffered similar casualty rates to those of units in other periods, that the overall death toll in the Second World War was much higher, and that if the casualties of 1914-1918 are what you object to then I cannot imagine how you might approve of any war in human history at all. And if that's the case, why bring up the First World War specifically as something to be disgusted by and reviled?
 
Not sure if it was widely distributed elsewhere at the time, but it is part of a famous series which was a major hit for BlueByte in the early 90s (Battle Isle). I owned the original Battle Isle for the Amiga, and it was an excellent game :)

One of the first (the first?) to allow for 2 player mode as well in a computer strategy game.
Battle Isle is still my favorite tactics game series. Panzer General can go home.
 
And we should factor that in that Hitler was not at fault for starting ww2 but that it was the allies fault for deceiving Hitler into believing they were weak.

Maybe if Poland hadn't been wearing such a short skirt that night, Germany wouldn't have felt compelled to invade it.
 
I wonder how WW1 is going to be presented in the media this year. How it started seems appallingly complicated. Will we just get spoon-fed some simplified version in line with putting whichever country we happen to be in in a favourable light?
 
I wonder how WW1 is going to be presented in the media this year. How it started seems appallingly complicated. Will we just get spoon-fed some simplified version in line with putting whichever country we happen to be in in a favourable light?

Maybe we should make our own CFC WWI documentary with Dachs as our resident expert.
 
Are we going to LARP the action scenes?
 
I'm not talking about the Second World War, I'm talking about the First. They're two entirely different things. Unfortunately, it seems as though you, the general public, and ententiste historians in general cannot tell the difference between 1914 and 1939. What Hitler did, or did not do, in the runup to the Second World War does not tell us very much about what the leaders of the Kaiserreich did or did not do in the runup to the Great War.

I KNEW IT. The US were the bad guys again.

Most of pre ww1 Austria-Hungry comes from you know Hitler, and how a young Hitler prior to ww1 was like. I find it ironic that Hitler would later go on to use territorial demands of uniting the German people into one country as the trigger point for starting the second world war, identical cause of the first world war :lol:

No wonder why Hitler felt that the more numerous and inferior slavs were a threat. The Germans making up a ethnic portion of Austria felt that German should be the national language and felt threatened as they became the minority and were losing power. Hungry seem to have even more racial problems and less liberal laws. No wonder they had annexed two balken countries.
 
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