[RD] Donald Trump accuses Barack Obama of illegal wiretap; calls for investigation

[metalhead]

You are indeed correct. Even if Trump is removed in favor of Pence... which in some (many) ways is actually worse, because Pence is competent.

Check your baseless assumptions.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Should I have qualified with a "more"?

Now I'm thinking that if the Democrats were to get a Supermajority Trump and Pence might just resign in the lame duck to guarantee POTUS to Ryan rather than risk giving it to Pelosi.

Of course all that hinges on Pence's involvement, which... I guess we can dream cant we?

 

[Ferocitus]

EDIT: I will concede that if the Democrats miraculously gain control of both houses Trump is 100% toast without question. He will be impeached and removed (or resign) before they even sit down in those comfy leather chairs.

Miraculous? Hmmm.
The gerrymanders don't look to favour the chances of Dems taking many seats in
Congress any time soon. The Senate could change hands, but even that is not
going to be easy.

I'm basing my information on two articles from about June:
https://www.salon.com/2017/05/27/wa...ve-no-democratic-majority-and-no-impeachment/
https://www.salon.com/2017/06/03/fo...rump-resistance-survive-the-democratic-party/

I'd be interested if anyone knows of any recent moves that counter these
arguments.

"As my former boss David Daley has documented extensively, both on Salon and in
his book "Rat******," the extreme and ingenious gerrymandering of congressional
districts locked in by Republican state legislators after the 2010 census
virtually guarantees a GOP House majority until the next census and at least the
2022 midterms. Yes, the widely-hated health care law might put a few Republican
seats in play that weren’t before. But the number of genuine “swing” districts
is vanishingly small, and it would require a Democratic wave of truly historic
dimensions to overcome the baked-in GOP advantage."

"As for the Senate — well, Democratic campaign strategists will mumble and look
away if you bring that up, because the Senate majority is completely out of
reach. Of the 33 Senate seats up for election next year, 25 are currently held
by Democrats — and 10 of those are in states carried by Donald Trump last year.
It’s far more likely that Republicans will gain seats in the Senate, perhaps by
knocking off Joe Manchin in West Virginia or Heidi Heitkamp in North Dakota,
than lose any at all."

 

[AdrienIer]

Flipping 24 seats in the house is not impossible if people actually go out and vote. Just look at the "competitive district" part of the Wikipedia article. The senate might end up at 45-55 after the election, but either way an impeachment would have required the assent of the republicans in the senate so that doesn't change too much. And if the house flips the US policy stuff will be on hold anyway.

 

[Zkribbler]

Flipping 24 seats in the house is not impossible if people actually go out and vote. Just look at the "competitive district" part of the Wikipedia article. The senate might end up at 45-55 after the election, but either way an impeachment would have required the assent of the republicans in the senate so that doesn't change too much. And if the house flips the US policy stuff will be on hold anyway.

Remember my prediction last January. I opined that the Republicans would impeach Trump after he'd enraged the American public by depriving them of health care and after afterTrump's trillion dollar tax giveaway. An impeachment gets rid of toxic Trump and puts Goldenboy Pence in the oval office.

 

[Ferocitus]

Flipping 24 seats in the house is not impossible if people actually go out and vote.

And as long as the other side don't "go out and vote" more than your
side!

 

[Ferocitus]

Remember my prediction last January.

No. Should it have been memorable for being correct, or incredibly far off the
mark?

Remember my prediction last January. I opined that the Republicans would impeach Trump after he'd enraged the American public by depriving them of health care and after afterTrump's trillion dollar tax giveaway. An impeachment gets rid of toxic Trump and puts Goldenboy Pence in the oval office.

That doesn't look very likely, but dream on.
I wish more GOP members and senators would take a stance against him, on
principle and en masse, but that's not happening. Condemning him as erratic or
unpresidential, or voting down a bill he proposes or supports is nothing like
the same as finding him deserving impeachment.

 

[metalhead]

Should I have qualified with a "more"?

Now I'm thinking that if the Democrats were to get a Supermajority Trump and Pence might just resign in the lame duck to guarantee POTUS to Ryan rather than risk giving it to Pelosi.

Of course all that hinges on Pence's involvement, which... I guess we can dream cant we?

Even that is a risky assumption, honestly. All you could really say is that Pence is marginally better equipped for the job on account of having been a governor. He doesn't appear to have been a terribly effective governor, and in many ways his career arc into politics mirrors Trump's - moved from media to politics. It's quite possible that Pence is every bit the incompetent empty suit that Trump is; the reason he is so willing to bend to Trump's will and lie and obfuscate on his behalf is because he isn't competent at anything other than media and branding. His whole raison d'etre as a politician is to be a religious nut pandering to other religious nuts, much as Trump is a bitter, angry, resentful, paranoid old racist pandering to bitter, angry, resentful, paranoid racists. I don't know that either is capable of anything more than that.

 

[AdrienIer]

Most educated people would be better than Trump. Pence has shown that he's capable of understanding basic concepts. Trump has to be told 11 times by Merkel that trade deals can only happen between the US and the EU, not between the US and Germany.

 

[metalhead]

I don't consider someone with Mike Pence's level of religiosity to be "educated" in any meaningful sense of the word.

 

[AdrienIer]

He's had high school education right ? And probably extensive college education ? He's used to working on complicated subjects and try to wrap his mind around complicated concepts. Trump is clearly incapable of that

 

[GoodSarmatian]

He's had high school education right ? And probably extensive college education ? He's used to working on complicated subjects and try to wrap his mind around complicated concepts. Trump is clearly incapable of that

While Trump was even an idiot before he went senile, Pence's intelligence is marred by his ideology. Even without the fundamentalism, he's still insane on the economy and foreign relations, and his relative competence mans he could actually get very harmful things done.

 

[AdrienIer]

While Trump was even an idiot before he went senile, Pence's intelligence is marred by his ideology. Even without the fundamentalism, he's still insane on the economy and foreign relations, and his relative competence mans he could actually get very harmful things done.

Sure. But I wouldn't be worried about Pence starting a war with North Korea or something. From a non-US point of view Pence is a million times better

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I don't know if Trump could even start such a dumb war by now. Some people down the chain of command might have objections and would be more likely to follow Pence's than Trump's orders.

 

[metalhead]

He's had high school education right ? And probably extensive college education ? He's used to working on complicated subjects and try to wrap his mind around complicated concepts. Trump is clearly incapable of that

Trump has a bachelor's degree in economics from one of the top 2 or 3 business schools in the country. Ostensibly he had to do something academically challenging to get it.

There are a lot of incompetent fools running around with degrees, even with degrees from esteemed institutions. And while I think Pence is a lot more levelheaded than Trump, I honestly don't know how far he's willing to take his religious ideology. He took it quite far in Indiana. Chances are pretty good he's not as dangerous as Trump, but he is plenty dangerous in his own right. And while I believe it is baseless to assume Pence is competent, there is at least the possibility that he is. But people would do well to realize that he's pretty much a black box at this point. We really don't know much other than he couldn't possibly be worse than Trump. But he could be just as bad, albeit probably for different reasons.

 

[Cutlass]

Pence is more dangerous than Trump on policy. Not as dangerous on irrational behavior and off the cuff reactions. Pence is a religious fanatic from a really failed branch of Christianity. But he's also a wholly owned subsidiary of crony capitalism incorporated. Expect him to be much more effective in working Congress to get Christian fascism and crony capitalism declared the law of the land.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Trump has a bachelor's degree in economics from one of the top 2 or 3 business schools in the country. Ostensibly he had to do something academically challenging to get it.

There are a lot of incompetent fools running around with degrees, even with degrees from esteemed institutions. And while I think Pence is a lot more levelheaded than Trump, I honestly don't know how far he's willing to take his religious ideology. He took it quite far in Indiana. Chances are pretty good he's not as dangerous as Trump, but he is plenty dangerous in his own right. And while I believe it is baseless to assume Pence is competent, there is at least the possibility that he is. But people would do well to realize that he's pretty much a black box at this point. We really don't know much other than he couldn't possibly be worse than Trump. But he could be just as bad, albeit probably for different reasons.

Ah so it seems we agree on the point that Pence is potentially at least as dangerous as Trump. My point about competence wasn't directed at education, intelligence or more importantly, potential to do a good job. When I say Pence is more competent, what I am talking about is a greater familiarity with, understanding of, and ability to manipulate, the governmental and legislative processes.

So as much as I would greatly enjoy seeing Trump get the impeaching and removal that he so richly deserves and is long overdue... my enthusiasm for seeing Trump gone is tempered by the knowledge that Pence may actually prove more focused and capable in terms of getting destructive Republican agenda items implemented.

 

[metalhead]

Ah so it seems we agree on the point that Pence is potentially at least as dangerous as Trump. My point about competence wasn't directed at education, intelligence or more importantly, potential to do a good job. When I say Pence is more competent, what I am talking about is a greater familiarity with, understanding of, and ability to manipulate, the governmental and legislative processes.

He has apparently been the one doing this for the administration, and so far has been an abject failure. He is more familiar and has a greater understanding, sure. But where the rubber meets the road, he appears to be completely incompetent as he has failed to get anything accomplished as the "big gun" in the administration when it comes to trying to work Congress. You can attribute those failures to his boss, maybe, but they're his too. He owns them.

 

[Sommerswerd]

He has apparently been the one doing this for the administration, and so far has been an abject failure. He is more familiar and has a greater understanding, sure. But where the rubber meets the road, he appears to be completely incompetent as he has failed to get anything accomplished as the "big gun" in the administration when it comes to trying to work Congress. You can attribute those failures to his boss, maybe, but they're his too. He owns them.

I certainly do attribute those failures to his boss... well, in addition to the fact that their goals are objectively contrary to the public good at best, malicious self-serving pilfering in all cases, and immoral, discriminatory and racist at worst. The point is... Trump being at the top doesn't help Pence much, except as others have pointed out, in the sense that he acts as a never-ending distraction, which may at times coincidentally help obscure more sinister policy action going on outside the flaps of the circus tent. We're all crying about how bad the ringmaster is treating the elephants while one of the acrobats is being raped in the alley outside the big top.

 

[Lexicus]

I certainly do attribute those failures to his boss... well, in addition to the fact that their goals are objectively contrary to the public good at best, malicious self-serving pilfering in all cases, and immoral, discriminatory and racist at worst. The point is... Trump being at the top doesn't help Pence much, except as others have pointed out, in the sense that he acts as a never-ending distraction, which may at times coincidentally help obscure more sinister policy action going on outside the flaps of the circus tent. We're all crying about how bad the ringmaster is treating the elephants while one of the acrobats is being raped in the alley outside the big top.

Not that we shouldn't care about the elephants, mind, but yes.