London calling [Student tuition fees and the protests]

[El_Machinae]

I understand that there's strong resentment over this in the UK. The baby-boomers protested their way into a cheap (or free) education, and then apparently pissed all that advantage away - the society that they crafted, that they thrived in, is unable to afford to give the same schooling that they did.

The UK is in tough fiscal shape, and I appreciate watching the Tories and the deficit as a social experiment (since I'm all the way over here). But I can understand the frustration.

The only real input I can give is to remind people that education is nearly free. It's accreditation that's so expensive. But that doesn't really help create much consolation, I know. It's still true. Pre-learning the material, before attending official courses, would allow someone to pass through the 'paid system' much more quickly.

 

[BCLG100]

By not taking intellectual fraud as majors and taking a real degree instead? You refuted yourself here. It's rather redundant talking about majors with no job prospects being able to afford anything, anyway.

The first problem you seem to have is that you consider a Science/practical degree to be of more intellectual value than an Arts degree. I feel that they are equal but can be equally chastising of a technical major. E.g. anyone can learn a rule and then repeat it butnot many people can construct an argument/write eloquently.

Now turning to the second part I didn't refute myself; there is still large portions of the job sector which hire equally large parts of the Arts community. Tonnes of the graduate schemes hire people with Arts background because those with a specialist background are already being hired into those specialities and because these general areas require a more general skill base than the overly specific skills achieved by researching, for example, mechanical engineering.

However, because there is such a demand for those positions of a technical nature; i.e. Chemists, scientists etc there can be funding obtained quite easily from large corporations. Graduate positions as which are not particular about what area was studied but merely that an area was studied and therefore the ability to research, argue, write to a higher standard etc; such as management are not able to fund a specific area because the potential areas would be too broad.

This is not even detracting from the fact that you are required to have a degree to become a teacher, quite a large portion of Arts students are teachers. It is only logical to assume that with a decrease in Arts study there will be a decrease in potential teachers/ perhaps a decline in their ability.

 

[Arwon]

It costs you about ~$6,000 - $8,000 per year in fees to attend University here, none of which you need to pay for up-front.

Austraia #1?

I think the "don't pay any upfront" is the key. My understanding is that the UK doesn't have the same sort of system.

 

[Ajidica]

6000 pounds? Thats around $9000, right?
Can I call the rioters ungrateful and self-absorbed? Yearly tuituion for average state schools in the upper midwest tend to run around $13000.

 

[Traitorfish]

I think the "don't pay any upfront" is the key. My understanding is that the UK doesn't have the same sort of system.

Scotland does- partially free the first time round, with any fees from additional attempts and the "graduate endowment" being tacked onto your student loan.

Good thing, too, because I blew my first three years on an Architecture course that didn't go anywhere.

 

[Arakhor]

6000 pounds? Thats around $9000, right?
Can I call the rioters ungrateful and self-absorbed? Yearly tuituion for average state schools in the upper midwest tend to run around $13000.

You could also call them British and about 4000 miles away from your state schools.

 

[Arwon]

6000 pounds? Thats around $9000, right?
Can I call the rioters ungrateful and self-absorbed? Yearly tuituion for average state schools in the upper midwest tend to run around $13000.

That sounds pretty anti-equality of opportunity.

 

[Ajidica]

I may be a bit pissy about school tuition. I'm just annoyed at the Brits rioting about having to pay 6000 pounds for college, while we are already paying more in the US and costs are likely going to go up as states cut their funding.

I'm not mad at the state subsidising college ed, but rather at the reactions of the protesters.

 

[Arwon]

Maybe if you guys had held a few more protests and fought for equality of access to higher education, you'd have a better set-up?

 

[Traitorfish]

Also, American society isn't quite as thoroughly classist as Britain's, so there isn't quite the same need to break down that variety of inherited social division. Think of lower fees as a sort of passive Affirmative Action.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

I understand that there's strong resentment over this in the UK. The baby-boomers protested their way into a cheap (or free) education, and then apparently pissed all that advantage away - the society that they crafted, that they thrived in, is unable to afford to give the same schooling that they did.

And do you know why they cannot afford that kind of support now? A combination of voodoo economics (Thatcher inspired Reagan) and allowing the rich and major corporations to not pay the taxes they're obliged to. Corporations get out of paying an estimated £120bn a year, through either outright illegal or highly dubious means. But what do the government do? They rob from the poor, to feed the rich, just like Bizzaro Robin Hood.

6000 pounds? Thats around $9000, right?
Can I call the rioters ungrateful and self-absorbed? Yearly tuituion for average state schools in the upper midwest tend to run around $13000.

No, but what you can do is call yourself unfairly taxed for using a programme which will be of major benefit to others (quite likely a major corporation, but society in general if not). Frankly free universal education is an idea which is so sensible I don't see why more people are rioting over not getting it.

 

[Masada]

You know, Australia #1 is just as tiresome as USA #1. It doesn't solve anything either.

Yes it does, emigrate (or you could just get a new system that doesn't suck poo-poo piles like your current one.) Whine harder inferior countries. Australia #1!

 

[FriendlyFire]

My tuition was 13K a year. I knocked half of that out with private academic scholarships. So color me unimpressed that these spoiled do nothings (actual students doing actual academic work don't have time for these temper tantrums) are going to have to pay to sit around smoking pot in dorm rooms while missing half their classes and failing to sleep with the hot chick.

How can people afford to blow 39k (assuming that to be base cost) for a three year degree. Just bumb around classes ??? I dont understand this mentality at all.

 

[Traitorfish]

Yes it does, emigrate (or you could just get a new system that doesn't suck poo-poo piles like your current one.) Whine harder inferior countries. Australia #1!

But you have Christmas in the Summer! I don't think my mind could deal with that.

 

[Earthling]

I wish we could ban Americans from talking about European politics.

Well why, when it doesn't go vice versa.

This whole thread should go to evidence of the stupidity of the British though right, "British voters" maybe?

There's two problems here. The first being that people apparently don't plan to save or spend almost anything for university, that's just not the most realistic anywhere going forward, it would be nice if some of that sentiment develops more in any country. That is something that's hard to excuse, really this goes for the public collectively and parents though, you don't expect students to work full time and barely or not even afford everything, but for parents to expect to save for their children's future and the public in general providing support/funding for the next generation, that's always good. Britain needs more of that (and needs to avoid related bad class warfare/immigrant pitholes as well)

Now, US universities can be amazingly overpriced, clearly what's being suggested is nowhere near to $30,000 a year or more schools can charge here. But the general point of a rapid cut in funding undermining students does remain, even if on a flat comparison British universities always seem cheap - I'd be a proponent of lowering costs and tuition in the US too.

 

[Arwon]

$30 000 a year up front?

When did the United States become a friggin aristocracy?

 

[Traitorfish]

Become?

 

[Camikaze]

I think the "don't pay any upfront" is the key. My understanding is that the UK doesn't have the same sort of system.

AFAIK their student loans stuff works essentially the same as ours. And student loan repayments are tied to income. My anecdotal evidence (which seems contrary to a lot in this thread) tells me that the equality thing is not so much to do with fees in the UK.

 

[Virote_Considon]

Does the amount of tuition fees that you pay still depend on your parent's income?

I think the tuition fees themselves are the same regardless of (parents') income.

 

[Mise]

Well why, when it doesn't go vice versa.

This whole thread should go to evidence of the stupidity of the British though right, "British voters" maybe?

There's two problems here. The first being that people apparently don't plan to save or spend almost anything for university, that's just not the most realistic anywhere going forward, it would be nice if some of that sentiment develops more in any country. That is something that's hard to excuse, really this goes for the public collectively and parents though, you don't expect students to work full time and barely or not even afford everything, but for parents to expect to save for their children's future and the public in general providing support/funding for the next generation, that's always good. Britain needs more of that (and needs to avoid related bad class warfare/immigrant pitholes as well)

Actually the problem is that rich families can and do save for their children's education, whereas poor families can't. The fees aren't even half of what you pay for university; rent, food and bills also pile up, and families also have to prepare for that.