Making a new Magic System Part III: Terraforming

[[to_xp]Gekko]

It is more like maintenance cost where you can only guess how much founding city in given tile will cost you

something I've wanted in the game for very long

 

[tesb]

i would also like to create rivers, hills, turn hills into plains, raise mountains, flood whole continents (offensivly and defensivly when palying OO i would like to make my civilization aquatic via terraforming) etc. if possible (i know creating hills is possible with the kazhad worldspell)

also dark magic deserts that effect enemy lands should also remove rivers imho.
i would also like to see a rebalance of hell terrain, in general it should be much more unfirendly and unusable by most civilizations and only specific civics or research can make it bearable. (especially concerning food)
to balance this out i very much like the idea posted earlier to unlink hell terrain from alignment and give good religions spells that protect from it and evil religions spells that make it useable.

this way it would be a good offensive tool against good civilizations.

No idea why Valkrionn is spreading this misinformation.

Maybe from reading your own post on the matter?

that is not an opinion but simply wrong.

i always enjoy your conversations

 

[tesb]

at least you are consitent with your name

 

[Pazyryk]

I like the hell terrain idea. It should get progressively harder to counter as AC goes up, and really hard at AC 100 (life after AC 100 is way too benign in the current system).

 

[esvath]

I proposed -1 on hell terrains in respect with their normal terrains once but the consensus in that thread said that loosing health resources is penalty enough. So, I'll be glad if we open another discussion on hell terrains

On topic :

How about several kinds of rituals :

• Light magic : bless your land and removing curses (restore your land to original, before the curse)
• Dark magic : curse enemies land or whole world
• Elemental magic : terraform your land only, terraform enemy land only, terraform the

whole world?

Light magic :
Sanctify : removes hell terrains in the beginning of a player turns. The cost should be increased with high AC and decreased with total life mana a player owns. Shrine of Sirona, Aquae Sucellus can provide discount for the ritual's cost. Evil civs can't do this, neutral can do this with increased cost, good with normal cost. CIvs with Sanctify active is immune to future Land of the Damned.
Cost = (XXX-[total life node owned]-[holy wonders])*AC*[alignment modifier]
Upkeep = YYY+[(AC-[total life node owned]-[holy wonders])*[alignment modifier]]

Vitalize : de-activate any Blight in your land, removes all fallout in your land, x% to transform your tile [desert -> plains, tundra -> plains, swamp -> grass, ice -> tundra], x% to grow forest in plains and grass, x% to upgrade forest into ancient forest. Civs with Vitalize active is immune to future Blight.
Cost : XXX-[total nature node owned]-[0.5*total life/creation node owned]+[total death/entropy node owned]+[2*total death/entropy node owned by player(s) targeting you with Blight].
Upkeep : YYY-[total nature node owned]-[0.5*total life/creation node owned]


Dark magic :
Land of the Damned : add hell terrains to the world (including your own land). Cost decrease with high AC and total entropy mana the player owns. Increased costwith every life mana exists. This will encourage evil players do some life mana raids and discourage them from having a life mana (so the evil Sheaim won't be chanting their Elegy all the way while their Mobius Witches sanctifying some tiles for production/food/resources...)
Cost = (XXX-[AC]-[total entropy node owned]+[total life node in the world]+[total sun/spirit/creation nodes*0.5])

Blight : x% to transform tiles into fallout (or anything that represent dying, unworkable and unhabitable land), x% chance to remove forest, (x/2)% chance to remove Ancient Forest, (x/2)% chance to remove grains and livestocks in enemy lands.
Cost = XXX-[total death/entropy node owned]+[total nature node owned by target]+[0.5*total life/creation node owned by target]
Upkeep = YYY-[total death/entropy node owned]+[total nature node owned by target]+[0.5*total life/creation node owned by target]+[number of tile in target's land]

Shatter Enchantment : Destroy any beneficial enchantment (Sanctify, Vitalize, Blessed Springs, etc) active in one player's land.
Cost = XXX+[2*base cost of active ritual(s)]-[total dimension node owned]-[0.5*total shadow/chaos node owned]
Upkeep = none; one time effect.
So, a player will have spend more mana to shatter a land with 3 enchanment than a land with 1 enchanment.

Elemental magic :
Drowned Land : transform enemy land. Grass -> 75% Swamp, 25% Grass; Plains -> 50% Grass, 50% Swamp; Flood Plains -> 75% Swamp, 25% Grass. Tiles adjancent to water (river/lake/sea) : 100% Swamp.
Cost = XXX-[total water node owned]+[total fire node owned by target]
Upkeep = none; one-time effect

Blessed Springs : transform your land. Tundra -> 75% Plains, 25% Grass; Desert -> 75% Plains, 25% Grass; Plains -> 100% Grass; Ice and Swamps are not affected. x% chance to create river in grasslands.
Cost = XXX-[total water node owned]-[0.5*total nature/enchantment node owned]
Upkeep = YYY-[total water/nature node owned]

Drought : transform enemy land. Grass -> 50% Plains, 50% Desert; Plains -> 75% Desert, 25% Plains (or 50% Desert, 25% Plains, 25% Flood Plains if adjancent to water); Flood Plains -> 100% Desert; Swamp -> 50% Grass, 25% Plains, 25% Desert. Destroy Oasis. x% chance to remove a river, x/4% chance to remove a lake.
Cost = XXX-[total fire node owned]+[total water node owned by target]
Upkeep = none; one-time effect

Glory Radiance : transform your land. Ice -> 75% Plains, 25% Tundra; Swamp -> 75% Plains, 25% Grass; Tundra -> 100% Plains; Grass -> 100% Plains; Desert are not affected.
Cost = XXX-[total fire node owned]-[0.5*total nature/enchantment/sun node owned]
Upkeep = none; one-time effect

Frozen Lands : transform all land. Grass -> 75% Tundra, 25% Ice; Plains -> 50% Tundra, 50% Ice; Desert -> 50% Plains, 50% Tundra; Swamps -> 50% Grass, 50% Tundra; Tundra -> 100% Ice. x% chance to spawn Blizzard. If Frozen Lands is active, your rivals have to build other terraforming rituals continously.
Cost = XXX-[total ice node owned]-[0.5*total air/water/nature node owned]+[total fire/sun node in the world]
Upkeep = YYY-[total ice node owned]+[total fire/sun node in the world]


Divine
Kilmorph's Bounty (I guess this spell is rather fit here) : increase your chance to discover stone/metals/gems resources.
Cost = XXX-[total earth node owned]-[0.5*total enchantment/force/metamagic node owned]-[Tablet of Bambur]
Upkeep = YYY-[total earth node owned]-[Tablet of Bambur]
Req : Runes of Kilmorph state religion (?)

Bloom : increase forest spawn rate and Ancient Forest upgrade rate. Can spread forest outside your territory if the tile adjancent to a forested tile. If an unowned, forested tile is adjancent to your territory, there is x% chance the tile will be upgraded into Ancient Forest, and your cultural border will be expanded into the tile. (you will control the new Ancient Forest). If the forested tile is owned, the chance for Ancient Forest spawn (and you control the Ancient Forest) is x/4%.
This way, no free Ancient Forest for your rivals.
Cost = XXX-[total nature node owned]-[0.5*total enchantment/creation/metamagic node owned]-[Song of Autumn]
Upkeep = YYY-[total nature node owned]-[Song of Autumn]
Req : Fellowship of Leaves state religion (?)

 

[Randomness]

at least you are consitent with your name

Sorry, that was directed at Valkiron and his cruel, sadistic, teasing

 

[Valkrionn]

i would also like to create rivers, hills, turn hills into plains, raise mountains, flood whole continents (offensivly and defensivly when palying OO i would like to make my civilization aquatic via terraforming) etc. if possible (i know creating hills is possible with the kazhad worldspell)

also dark magic deserts that effect enemy lands should also remove rivers imho.
i would also like to see a rebalance of hell terrain, in general it should be much more unfirendly and unusable by most civilizations and only specific civics or research can make it bearable. (especially concerning food)
to balance this out i very much like the idea posted earlier to unlink hell terrain from alignment and give good religions spells that protect from it and evil religions spells that make it useable.

this way it would be a good offensive tool against good civilizations.

Rivers are near impossible to create, and have look good. And changing the plot level of a terrain (Water -> Plains -> Hill -> Mountain) causes graphical issues that IIRC can only be fixed by saving and reloading. If you are willing to live with that it is easily possible, though.

i always enjoy your conversations

As do I.

 

[Valkrionn]

Sorry, that was directed at Valkiron and his cruel, sadistic, teasing

Meh. I've been revealing info more frequently lately. For example, even mentioned the City Spells that the 'teasing' you refer to was about, a few posts later.

 

[tesb]

i would like to see the hell terrain ward tiered:
tier 1: sanctify: only slows down the spread rate of hell terrain in your borders
tier 2: sanctify: stops hell terrain from entering your borders
tier 3: sanctify: removes hell terrain from your borders

i would also change hell terrain so it gives -2 -2 -2 and implement new global enchantments (spell rituals) that increase the yields, so evil civs (Ashen Veil) can make use of hellterrain, while good civs will not be able to effectilvy use it, since as of now even if you have hell terrain within your borders as a good civ it is not really bad.

i don't know how swamps currently behaves, but the only improvement that should be allowed on it are jungle/ deepened jungle and trails, so you can drown enemy lands (OO) or scorch them (Empyrian). You could also give those religions spells that increases the yield on those lands, so Empyrian would have global enchantments that increases the yield of deserts (malakim start with it, maybe tier them too) and the Octopus Overlords have global enchantments that increase yield on swamp/cost/ocean/deep ocean

 

[esvath]

I do not think we should give desert anything... Desert is (and will always be) an unpleasant place to live in. No matter how religious you are, desert is just... unpleasant. There is no reason at all for Empyrean to settle in desert. To make a pilgrimage, okay. But not to settle in it...

(never agree with Malakim auto-spread desert too... )

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

new system sounds great, I just hope we won't lose the ability to do cool stuff like set forests alight in enemy territory, or creating a desert highway for trade and invasion for the malakim, etc.

 

[tesb]

yes it should be unpleasant, but with magic anything is possible
i am talking more from a gamemechanics view, i would like to see different civs adopt to specific climates based on enchantments, you could even make them chancel each other out for example if you have an enchantment that allows you to dwell in desert you get negative bonuses when living in lush green land or swamps, same with hell terrain you follow the ashen veil turn your and the enemies land into hell terrain but only you may benefit from it (while having problems in regular terrain)

lore can be written afterwards

 

[DonQuigleone]

Perhaps Terraforming should gradually effect your civilization as a whole, and push you Civ to a specific Climate (still with some variation based on latitude and whatnot), and if you stop maintaining the spell the land will gradually revert back to it's previous state (No Ontological Intertia?). Being able to target specific tiles is a bit too powerful in my view, but having your whole empire one climate makes things more interesting. However certain circumstances should slow things down, for instance a wide open expanse of Desert should be difficult to change(and would start at Oases and rivers), and an expanse of Tundra should be gradually "pushed" northwards. Also the number of tiles that have been changed, and how much they've been changed should effect the upkeep. So changing a large expanse of desert to Grassland should require a large amount of mana, compared to changing it to a plain.

 

[Sephi]

added a lot more terraforming rituals now (currently 21). Add river, turn ocean to land, turn land to ocean, Firestorm, Earthquake and more.

Interface is also done to a large degree. One Magic screen with a few subscreens where you can choose how to spend your mana/faith. Even though they are technically rituals, you won't create them in a city.

 

[tesb]

now that sounds great, any chances for a sneaky preview screenshot?

 

[DonQuigleone]

turn ocean to land, turn land to ocean

That seems rather powerful. I hope it'll be too powerful to use en masse, and mostly restricted to linking up Islands, or making one of your cities coastal(for instance for the Kuriotates.)

 

[Sephi]

I have added a Land of the Dammed Ritual. Makes Hell Terrain a lot more vulnerable to negative Terrafoming Effects than other terrain. I see no problem with the current hell terrain mechanic and I don't want to mess with the hell terrain code either as it is really complicated and might take quite a lot of time to rebalance again. Hell terrain basically forces you to either switch to good so you have less of it or AV so you can endure it's negative effects more. If you simply ignore it, you not only loose health/floodplains, but you are also prone to some nasty hostile terraforming.

Rivers are near impossible to create, and have look good. And changing the plot level of a terrain (Water -> Plains -> Hill -> Mountain) causes graphical issues that IIRC can only be fixed by saving and reloading. If you are willing to live with that it is easily possible, though.

any mapscript creates rivers that look good. Far from impossible, the code is already there. And changing the plot level causes no graphic issues if done via ritual . No need for reloading.

 

[tesb]

any mapscript creates rivers that look good. Far from impossible, the code is already there. And changing the plot level causes no graphic issues if done via ritual . No need for reloading.

so when an enemy army approaches i can 'simply' raise some mountains or create a bit of ocean and block them off? great!

I have added a Land of the Dammed Ritual. Makes Hell Terrain a lot more vulnerable to negative Terrafoming Effects than other terrain. I see no problem with the current hell terrain mechanic and I don't want to mess with the hell terrain code either as it is really complicated and might take quite a lot of time to rebalance again. Hell terrain basically forces you to either switch to good so you have less of it or AV so you can endure it's negative effects more. If you simply ignore it, you not only loose health/floodplains, but you are also prone to some nasty hostile terraforming.

my suggestions were just comming from
1) the expierence that i like to play svartalfar, but keeping my forests alive is nearly impossible when you are evil.
if there would be an other mechanic to keep the hell terrain out of my realm while being evil i would be satisfied, even if this would be costly.
2) i don't think you have to adopt the ashen veil at all to endure the effects of hell terrain, sure you will loose some food production since you loose food resources, but in general i do not adopt sacrifice the weak when playing the sheaim for example i still get a better economy with consumption. i would like to see hell terrain work similiar to desert and malakim, bad or straight out useless if you are not the right civilization (in the case of hell terrain religion)

the changes don't have to be on the economic side, having hell terrain affect all living unit stats would be an other way to balance it. you could even tie this debuff to the armageddon counter, if it is high all living units will be very weak on hell terrain (unless you follow the ashen veil)

 

[Tarquelne]

I've tended to ignore terraforming in the past primarily because it seemed so easy/cheap it wasn't fun. The new system seems to offer more options and - most importantly to me - control the easy/cheap factor by drawing on your mana reserves. Nice!

Could be some really good differentiation among civs or strategies now: Some into terraforming, some into summoning, some into "normal" magic.

 

[Valkrionn]

any mapscript creates rivers that look good. Far from impossible, the code is already there. And changing the plot level causes no graphic issues if done via ritual . No need for reloading.

I am aware that mapscripts do it. However, they have various heightmaps, simulated rainshadow, all kinds of other climate effects at their disposal.

What I meant was a targeted spell (Place a river starting HERE and ending THERE); That's fairly difficult to get looking good via worldbuilder, and a spell I'd assume to be the same. If the river is placed at least semi-randomly, it may look fine... But again, I dislike really random terraforming so I didn't consider that possibility.

As for the ritual... I'd assume that means you are changing plot type in C++, rather than python? That would likely avoid the issues there, I'm just in the habit of assuming python for rarer effects like that.