Mass Shooting in Chicago

[Birdjaguar]

Gotcha, Marie.

Pineapple. Upside down. Cooked in an iron skillet.

 

[Joij21]

Those failings are nothing new but more and more jobs now offer more benefits. If people don't want to do particular kinds of work for $15/hr, fine. Businesses will find ways to automate and those jobs will be gone forever. In other cases, folks are not qualified for better jobs or don't want to move or go into the office anymore. Times change; people change. Millennials and Gen Z are shaping their future to their liking as they resist falling into the traps of aging and and adopting how older people thought about life and work. And they are doing so in the face ongoing uncertainty and crisis. As the Bible says: birthing new life is painful.

What are you getting at here? You sound insane! And like the very Republicans who always complain that Millennials and Gen Z aren't working hard enough!

The jobs are crap plain and simple! And most of them don't have good benefits!

 

[IglooDame]

There are liberals that choose to own guns. Come on, it's not just conservatives that fetishize guns. Also just look at Hollywood and all those action movies glorifying guns. It's bipartisan, you overestimate the power of Rush Limbaugh.

And there are conservatives in BLM marches and Pride parades, but let's not pretend either circumstance is common. That said, the biggest "new gun owner" bloc over the past couple years was liberals/minorities. And websearch "Socialist Rifle Association" if you have some time to spare.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

But ofc you have no problem with these people who turn out to be legally unfit to possess a gun finding it trivially easy to obtain one.

"no problem" doesn't capture my preferences.

as a matter of principle, i am not willing to trample on peoples' rights broadly as a means to (very poorly) reduce the probability of comparatively rare bad things happening. it's bad process, and if you operate with that process broadly you get to live in a hell hole. i don't want to live in a hell hole, so i would rather countries keep to principles.

i've noted that you switched from rifle to gun already. there's no amount of "gun control" that changes the quote above unless you're willing to destroy general rights to possess them. the costs for that are greater than the benefits, long term. that's what i was getting at with the firebombing example too. the optics of "saving a life" do not align with the practical consequences.

I don't see how TheMe believes he "owned Samson", superhard, relatively hard or otherwise; it's just discussion.

when i give examples like this it's done to demonstrate that the rationale given doesn't support the position held. it might be that the position held isn't viable, but it also might just mean that the rationale presented isn't the "real reason" for the policy preference. doing what i did demonstrates the need for being more specific; we're looking to optimize for something. maybe we have different utility functions, maybe we don't.

regardless, every policy choice has a cost. obviously, fire bombing cities has a greater cost in lives than it saves. i argue some other policies also have a greater cost than they save, albeit for less obvious reasons.

 

[Farm Boy]

Pineapple. Upside down. Cooked in an iron skillet.

Pineapple that has an upside to down is an hour round trip in the car with all the other fruits and vegetables. It'd be easier to just make a progressing diabetes cake.

 

[AmazonQueen]

"no problem" doesn't capture my preferences.

as a matter of principle, i am not willing to trample on peoples' rights broadly as a means to (very poorly) reduce the probability of comparatively rare bad things happening. it's bad process, and if you operate with that process broadly you get to live in a hell hole. i don't want to live in a hell hole, so i would rather countries keep to principles.

i've noted that you switched from rifle to gun already. there's no amount of "gun control" that changes the quote above unless you're willing to destroy general rights to possess them. the costs for that are greater than the benefits, long term. that's what i was getting at with the firebombing example too. the optics of "saving a life" do not align with the practical consequences.

Hellholes like the rest of the developed world?

 

[Birdjaguar]

The quality of the jobs matters. They could be jobs that simply don't pay well.

Could be, but....I have a friend who has been trying to hire 13 clerks for retail positions that pay $14/hr; includes 401k with 5% match; paid health insurance; 28 days of annual PTO; and paid vacation days. She cannot find anyone willing to fill the jobs.

That was Carter's recession which Reagan inherited. Nixon was the one who actually opened us up to China and got rid of the Gold Standard.

Nice try.

Prior to the current recession, the deepest post-World War II economic downturn occurred in the early 1980s. According to the accepted arbiter of the economy’s ups and downs, the National Bureau for Economic Research, a brief recession in 1980 — lasting only six months — and a short period of growth, were followed by a sustained recession from July 1981 to November 1982. The unemployment rate hovered between 7% and 8% from the summer of 1980 to the fall of 1981, when it began to rise quickly. By March 1982 it had reached 9%, and in December of that year the unemployment rate stood at its recession peak of 10.8%. The jobless rate slowly receded over the next few years, falling to 8.3% by the end of 1983 and to 7.2% by the 1984 presidential election. The unemployment rate did not fall below 6%, however, until September 1987.

In the spring of 1981, shortly before the onset of the painful recession, most Americans were optimistic about their economic future. A Gallup survey at the time found that 48% of the public believed the financial position of their household would be better in the next 12 months. Another 35% believed it would stay the same, while only 15% thought it would get worse. The public also smiled on the newly elected president. In a May poll, nearly half of Americans said the Reagan administration’s economic policies would make their family’s financial situation much better (8%) or somewhat better (41%). Just 37% said Reagan’s policies would make their family finances worse.

A year later, in September 1982, with the unemployment rate at 10.1%, most Americans were far from pleased with the state of the economy. A 54%-majority said Reagan’s policies had made their personal financial situation worse; just 34% said the policies had made their situation better. But even as the economy reached its nadir, the public did not lose all confidence in Reagan: In an October survey, a 40%-plurality said that over the long run the president’s policies would make their economic situation better, while a third said they would make things worse and 15% volunteered they would stay the same.

There are liberals that choose to own guns. Come on, it's not just conservatives that fetishize guns. Also just look at Hollywood and all those action movies glorifying guns. It's bipartisan, you overestimate the power of Rush Limbaugh.

Gun loving, hate libruls radio has been a powerful mover for a very long time. Every show is a call to action. It is qualitatively different than movies and games.

 

[Samson]

Restrictions on rifles isn't a total solution but it is part of the solution. Accepting mass shootings as normal and unavoidable is part of the problem.

not backed by reality. not as a causal factor, and certainly not as a means to prevent mass shootings.

If it would stop one mass shooting then it could be part of the solution.

If you fire bomb every metropolitan center in both california and new york, you will have fewer mass shootings in the future than otherwise, especially in those particular cities.

i think we agree that this isn't reasonably "part of the solution", but i use it to refute quoted reasoning.

when i give examples like this it's done to demonstrate that the rationale given doesn't support the position held. it might be that the position held isn't viable, but it also might just mean that the rationale presented isn't the "real reason" for the policy preference. doing what i did demonstrates the need for being more specific; we're looking to optimize for something. maybe we have different utility functions, maybe we don't.

The position is "Restrictions on rifles isn't a total solution but it is part of the solution". The rationale is that "If it would stop one mass shooting then it could be part of the solution." This is from the point of view of two brits where all guns were got rid of unless you had a very good reason because of two mass shootings. It sure looks to like the rationale given supports the position held. Certainly a whole lot better than firebombing cities.

Could be, but....I have a friend who has been trying to hire 13 clerks for retail positions that pay $14/hr; includes 401k with 5% match; paid health insurance; 28 days of annual PTO; and paid vacation days. She cannot find anyone willing to fill the jobs.

$14/hr sounds pretty bad, what sort of life can you have on that? Can you buy a home? Raise a family?

 

[Birdjaguar]

$14/hr sounds pretty bad, what sort of life can you have on that? Can you buy a home? Raise a family?

That is pretty much the new minimum wage in NM. that's $28,000 plus any overtime, plus $7000 for the paid (and very good) health insurance, plus $4200 for the paid time off and vacation. Buying a home and raising a family depend upon other circumstances. Job requires HS degree and ability to use store software.

 

[sophie]

14/hr is about 2000/mo after taxes, before insurance and retirement contributions. The national median rent is something like 1800/mo.

I can’t speak for New Mexico’s housing situation, but in Chicago 14/hr is good for a slummy apartment with a roommate or an ok apartment with a half-dozen roommates. Not assuming you own a car, of course.

 

[Kyriakos]

14/hr is about 2000/mo after taxes, before insurance and retirement contributions. The national median rent is something like 1800/mo.

So you can rent a house, as long as you never eat.

 

[MaryKB]

14/hr is about 2000/mo after taxes, before insurance and retirement contributions. The national median rent is something like 1800/mo.

What's the typical rent in New Mexico? Doing some quick Googling, it's much, much lower than that.

You can't really have a single national standard in this country, because cost of living varies WIDELY from place to place. A salary that makes you wealthy in rural Ohio is going to leave you on the street in San Fransisco, etc.

 

[Birdjaguar]

14/hr is about 2000/mo after taxes, before insurance and retirement contributions. The national median rent is something like 1800/mo.

NM is much less expensive. Can you buy a $300,000 home and raise 2 kids on that? Very tough. Can you contribute to a household and make a difference? Yes. And essentially, no skills are needed other than to be a civil person.

 

[Farm Boy]

Now imagine that without the insurance or the time off and you have an awful lot of those jobs the bouge are just dying for us to pick up as third lines!

 

[Birdjaguar]

What's the typical rent in New Mexico? Doing some quick Googling, it's much, much lower than that.

You can't really have a single national standard in this country, because cost of living varies WIDELY from place to place. A salary that makes you wealthy in rural Ohio is going to leave you on the street in San Fransisco, etc.

Apartments can run run as low as $500 per month is some parts of town, $7-800 is more typical. Houses will be over $1000 mostly.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Now imagine that without the insurance or the time off and you have an awful lot of those jobs the bouge are just dying for us to pick up as third lines!

My friend's problem is that even with all those benefits, the jobs are unfilled. Why? Retail is terrible work and no one wants to be there? Maybe. My friend has asked to give her ideas since all her various advertising efforts (online and in local print) have failed. My best suggestion is to poach fromother retailers in the same line of business that offer fewer benefits.

 

[sophie]

What's the typical rent in New Mexico? Doing some quick Googling, it's much, much lower than that.

You can't really have a single national standard in this country, because cost of living varies WIDELY from place to place. A salary that makes you wealthy in rural Ohio is going to leave you on the street in San Fransisco, etc.

Never said it wasn’t, that’s simply the National median rent, as I said. The point was to highlight succinctly that 14/hr is not sufficient in today’s world. Even at 700/mo rent, if you need a car to live in that location you can essentially add another 750/mo onto that rent. And again, that’s before all other considerations.

 

[MaryKB]

Apartments can run run as low as $500 per month is some parts of town, $7-800 is more typical. Houses will be over $1000 mostly.

If she's not finding employees, then she's not offering competitive rates. It's not enough to say "you can live off of this" ... people can find more appealing work for less money.

I have a friend who hosts D&D games over the internet. She does 2 games a day 4 days a week, with 6 people per game charged $20 each. Sessions last 3 hours. She's making $40/hour to do her passion hobby.

 

[Birdjaguar]

If she's not finding employees, then she's not offering competitive rates. It's not enough to say "you can live off of this" ... people can find more appealing work for less money.

I have a friend who hosts D&D games over the internet. She does 2 games a day 4 days a week, with 6 people per game charged $20 each. Sessions last 3 hours. She's making $40/hour to do her passion hobby.

Nice. She is likely an imaginative type who might well be better educated? Starting one's own business is difficult and usually takes a reserve of savings or a spouse. It is very hard work. I've done it three times.

My friend will have to find a way to make do. I don't know if she will bump her starting rate. My whole point is that not all of the 11 million jobs out there that are not being filled are crap $10/hr with no benefits.

 

[MaryKB]

Nice. She is likely an imaginative type who might well be better educated? Starting one's own business is difficult and usually takes a reserve of savings or a spouse. It is very hard work. I've done it three times.

My friend will have to find a way to make do. I don't know if she will bump her starting rate. My whole point is that not all of the 11 million jobs out there that are not being filled are crap $10/hr with no benefits.

If no one's willing to do it, then it's a crap job and your friend is not offering enough salary.