Mass Shooting in Chicago

[Joij21]

it might instead be useful to look at why mass shootings of this nature happen more in past 1-2 decades than they did in say 1970s or earlier.

The last decade many people remained poor and hadn't recovered economically from the 2008 crash (or rather many divorces over money happened at the time affecting child custody and peoples' ability to therefore pay for college which they now couldn't do now that the other parent has left).

It really increased over the past decade, so that's my take on it. The rise of a college uneducated class has directly led to a rise in an incel class full of anger due to a lack of success (white culture being obsessed and entitled to it). In the past there would have been plenty of good paying jobs for the college uneducated, however all of those have been sent overseas since the 1970s, especially in the 90s.

So yeah I think it is a result of globalization, but too many liberals and people from other countries refuse to see it. Their solution to it was to opt for gun control, which while may have slowed it down, probably hasn't solved these job and success related issues within their societies. They would have a high mass shooter rate if they had the same amount of guns, and due to mass unemployment in some European states, it would probably be much worse. However to even blame globalization or the economy is to call into question the whole global "rules based system" that has enriched a few and those fortunate to be properly educated, so they just won't talk about it.

 

[El_Machinae]

If legally purchased guns are making their way into the hands of people who will use them illegally, there is some problem being imposed on the legal owners. The transfer is one way, from legal to illegal, which means that whatever incentive structure is motivating that transfer (currently), it's motivating the legal owner. That will need to be changed.

This is why licensing is so worthwhile - and we see this in regions with good licensing of open-carry. People who work to own the gun are more likely to make the person illegally getting the gun have to jump through hoops as well.

 

[Lexicus]

Source?
The sources I have found indicates most guns used in mass shootings were legally obtained.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/s...-used-mass-shootings-obtained-legally-n474441

https://www.statista.com/statistics/476461/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-legality-of-shooters-weapons/

TMIT said illegally possessed. Your confusion is understandable. You see, the position is that as soon as the person who legally obtained the rifle started to use it to commit a crime it became an illegal possession. It's similar logic to Tesla autopilot disengaging fraction of a second before any crash, therefore Tesla autopilot has never been liable for a crash - in both cases the system works perfectly, and cannot be improved!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If it would stop one mass shooting then it could be part of the solution.

If you fire bomb every metropolitan center in both california and new york, you will have fewer mass shootings in the future than otherwise, especially in those particular cities.

i think we agree that this isn't reasonably "part of the solution", but i use it to refute quoted reasoning.

The sources I have found indicates most guns used in mass shootings were legally obtained.

legally obtained =/= legally possessed. what % of these people purchased the gun themselves and were still legally fit to own it at time of shooting? i hear conflicting stories on this, and forgive me for not taking sites that count suicides and homicides in the same category + also count gang violence, domestic homicides, and indiscriminate shooting as one category at face value.

There are changes in society that have made this sort of thing more common. However having loads of guns really is not helping.

it has been trivial to acquire a firearm suited to the task of indiscriminate slaughter for longer than anyone here has been alive most likely. no doubt "changes to society" made it more common, but "availability of rifles" isn't one of those changes.

The last decade many people remained poor and hadn't recovered economically from the 2008 crash (or rather many divorces over money happened at the time affecting child custody and peoples' ability to therefore pay for college which they now couldn't do now that the other parent has left).

i'm not sure divorces over money reasonably square with economic downturn (divorces are expensive), but i'm also not sure you're wrong about this.

It really increased over the past decade, so that's my take on it. The rise of a college uneducated class has directly led to a rise in an incel class full of anger due to a lack of success (white culture being obsessed and entitled to it). In the past there would have been plenty of good paying jobs for the college uneducated, however all of those have been sent overseas since the 1970s, especially in the 90s.

i wonder if the internet isn't a better predictor than being relatively poor/uneducated. we've had poor classes for centuries, and same for a significant % of population being non-viable in work force. it's not even a new thing in historical terms to have disproportionately small % of men reproduce compared to total pool ("incels" weren't considered such historically, but this isn't the first time it's happened). however, this means of concentrating communication is new.

i'm not sure college vs not is the explanation, but it's true that having a relatively large % of unmarried men has consistently led to instability historically. don't have a good solution for that, though. i don't think even implementing mra requests would change it much at this scale.

 

[Kyriakos]

Using rifles/firearms in this kind of attack does lead - in most cases, not this one but even here the attacker was arrested later on - to a quick arrest or death of the shooter. If we assume (which sounds realistic) that the overwhelming majority of those who do this kind of attack, will have the incentive to research getting the means if firearms ever become critically less accessible, it is the most likely outcome in that hypothetical timeline that future attacks will not be significantly fewer in number but will indeed allow for many of the attackers not being caught - in which case, at least some of them may do more attacks.

Motive should be imo far more focused upon, instead of means.
I don't think it will, of course; the public is too stuck in the usual polemics, pro or anti-NRA gets soundbites (supposed to also get votes), mental health funding doesn't.

 

[Gorbles]

If you fire bomb every metropolitan center in both california and new york, you will have fewer mass shootings in the future than otherwise, especially in those particular cities.

i think we agree that this isn't reasonably "part of the solution", but i use it to refute quoted reasoning.

Equating firearm restrictions to firebombing a location is a pretty huge false equivalence, and therefore a poor refutation of the reasoning you seem to object to.

 

[Kaitzilla]

The argument is that Chicago, Illinois does not have enough gun restrictions?

Or that people need to elect more democrats in Chicago, Illinois?

 

[Lexicus]

If you fire bomb every metropolitan center in both california and new york, you will have fewer mass shootings in the future than otherwise, especially in those particular cities.

Oh my god this is just gold. And the fact that he seriously believes he just owned Samson super-hard is the funniest part

legally obtained =/= legally possessed. what % of these people purchased the gun themselves and were still legally fit to own it at time of shooting?

Yooooo lmao i called it

 

[Kyriakos]

I don't see how TheMe believes he "owned Samson", superhard, relatively hard or otherwise; it's just discussion.

 

[AmazonQueen]

legally obtained =/= legally possessed. what % of these people purchased the gun themselves and were still legally fit to own it at time of shooting? i hear conflicting stories on this, and forgive me for not taking sites that count suicides and homicides in the same category + also count gang violence, domestic homicides, and indiscriminate shooting as one category at face value.

it has been trivial to acquire a firearm suited to the task of indiscriminate slaughter for longer than anyone here has been alive most likely. no doubt "changes to society" made it more common, but "availability of rifles" isn't one of those changes.

But ofc you have no problem with these people who turn out to be legally unfit to possess a gun finding it trivially easy to obtain one.

 

[Farm Boy]

The argument is that Chicago, Illinois does not have enough gun restrictions?

Or that people need to elect more democrats in Chicago, Illinois?

No, it just means they need to deal with you because somebody else somewhere else sometime else. Because close enough.

 

[Birdjaguar]

In the past there would have been plenty of good paying jobs for the college uneducated, however all of those have been sent overseas since the 1970s, especially in the 90s.

So yeah I think it is a result of globalization, but too many liberals and people from other countries refuse to see it. Their solution to it was to opt for gun control, which while may have slowed it down, probably hasn't solved these job and success related issues within their societies. They would have a high mass shooter rate if they had the same amount of guns, and due to mass unemployment in some European states, it would probably be much worse. However to even blame globalization or the economy is to call into question the whole global "rules based system" that has enriched a few and those fortunate to be properly educated, so they just won't talk about it.

The exodus of US companies to Asia+ began after Reagan's recession and the rise of the leveraged buyout get rich quick schemes of the 80s. It continued for over 25 years.

You are ignoring that for 30 years right wing talk radio has been dividing America into two camps and telling its listeners to buy guns to protect themselves from libruls. Gun manufacturers have fanned the flames of this division freely. Gun culture worship is an American phenomenon (sickness more likely) that the conservative right has exploited beyond reasonableness. In 1790 gun rights were an important aspect of survival in a wilderness based nation that was just beginning. Conservatives have turned that long gone necessity into a political cause among the ignorant and stupid.

Oh, btw, there are 11 million unfilled jobs in the US today. Unemployment is not an issue and hasn't been for the past 5-6 years (exception: briefly at the start of the pandemic).

 

[Lexicus]

I don't see how TheMe believes he "owned Samson", superhard, relatively hard or otherwise; it's just discussion.

You don't see it because you are a zeta and TMIT and I are sigmas

 

[Farm Boy]

There are a lot of jobs that suck or people can't get. Health insurance. Daycare. 11 million jobs my fat ass.

 

[sophie]

I would ascribe the uptick to a combination of:

1) rampant wealth inequality
2) political alienation
3) social isolation
4) the internet
5) massive increase in access to guns

You grow up in a tiny little box sequestered away from other people where you live under constant surveillance until you hit 16, your only meaningful social interactions occur in what are essentially youth prisons, or else in self-selecting bubbles on the internet, run by corporations with a financial incentive to serve you ever more radical communities, you watch as your life prospects are eroded away from you in real time and your capacity to effect change at the political level are essentially tantamount to screaming into a void. Add a shitload of guns, and, well, there you go.

 

[El_Machinae]

I'm concerned that the bait-and-switch is being missed when it comes to globalization. It's less that jobs were exported and it's more that the benefits thereof were not allocated properly. In fact, the commodified wealth was used to shuttle more wealth upwards.

Some people definitely prefer to be sheep farmers, I'll admit. But anyone running through the depiction of Comparative Advantage through Trade notices that the sheep farmers lose their jobs and then become the least of the textile workers but really shouldn't be worse off than they were before. We created a society where the commodified wealth can be weaponized against us, tricking us into punching down.

 

[Birdjaguar]

There are a lot of jobs that suck or people can't get. Health insurance. Daycare. 11 million jobs my fat ass.

Those failings are nothing new but more and more jobs now offer more benefits. If people don't want to do particular kinds of work for $15/hr, fine. Businesses will find ways to automate and those jobs will be gone forever. In other cases, folks are not qualified for better jobs or don't want to move or go into the office anymore. Times change; people change. Millennials and Gen Z are shaping their future to their liking as they resist falling into the traps of aging and and adopting how older people thought about life and work. And they are doing so in the face ongoing uncertainty and crisis. As the Bible says: birthing new life is painful.

 

[Gorbles]

There are a lot of jobs that suck or people can't get. Health insurance. Daycare. 11 million jobs my fat ass.

As supposed to the demonised "globalisation"? My own fat ass indeed

Unemployment metrics favour the country / politician(s) that defines them, no doubt about it. But that's a whole other problem.

 

[Farm Boy]

Those failings are nothing new but more and more jobs now offer more benefits. If people don't want to do particular kinds of work for $15/hr, fine. Businesses will find ways to automate and those jobs will be gone forever. In other cases, folks are not qualified for better jobs or don't want to move or go into the office anymore. Times change; people change. Millennials and Gen Z are shaping their future to their liking as they resist falling into the traps of aging and and adopting how older people thought about life and work. And they are doing so in the face ongoing uncertainty and crisis. As the Bible says: birthing new life is painful.

Right, cake.

Gotcha, Marie.

 

[Joij21]

Oh, btw, there are 11 million unfilled jobs in the US today. Unemployment is not an issue and hasn't been for the past 5-6 years (exception: briefly at the start of the pandemic).

The quality of the jobs matters. They could be jobs that simply don't pay well.

The exodus of US companies to Asia+ began after Reagan's recession and the rise of the leveraged buyout get rich quick schemes of the 80s. It continued for over 25 years.

That was Carter's recession which Reagan inherited. Nixon was the one who actually opened us up to China and got rid of the Gold Standard.

You are ignoring that for 30 years right wing talk radio has been dividing America into two camps and telling its listeners to buy guns to protect themselves from libruls. Gun manufacturers have fanned the flames of this division freely. Gun culture worship is an American phenomenon (sickness more likely) that the conservative right has exploited beyond reasonableness. In 1790 gun rights were an important aspect of survival in a wilderness based nation that was just beginning. Conservatives have turned that long gone necessity into a political cause among the ignorant and stupid.

There are liberals that choose to own guns. Come on, it's not just conservatives that fetishize guns. Also just look at Hollywood and all those action movies glorifying guns. It's bipartisan, you overestimate the power of Rush Limbaugh.