Migrant Crimes Add Volatile Element to Austria’s Election

[El_Machinae]

I don't support any genocide, and neither does anyone else here. Arguing against scare crows is for cretins.

No, of course not. I didn't mean to imply it, and certainly didn't want the conversation to go that way.

I'm just saying that there was literally no way that this could have ended well. We all recognize the bad consequences of any specific decision. But they really need to be compared to the counterfactual, and not compared to a parallel universe.

 

[emzie]

What are alternatives that involve not accepting refugees? Shoving thousands of people into refugee camps in Turkey has some pretty big problems associated with it, and it's not like refugee camps can become militarized or anything

Detainment centers. Sort out people fleeing war torn countries from people seeking economic opportunity. Deport the latter. Send the actual refugees to refugee camps you set up around the country. Grant privileges to individuals based on their behaviour (the right to leave camp, for instance), with the aim of graduating people out of the camp and into general society.

I kinda suspect if the Nazis hadn't been a thing, this is what you'd see across Europe right now.

 

[Senethro]

What a bunch of idiots for living in a war-torn non-democracy. They deserved everything thats coming to them.

 

[W|M]

Detainment centers. Sort out people fleeing war torn countries from people seeking economic opportunity. Deport the latter. Send the actual refugees to refugee camps you set up around the country. Grant privileges to individuals based on their behaviour (the right to leave camp, for instance), with the aim of graduating people out of the camp and into general society.

I kinda suspect if the Nazis hadn't been a thing, this is what you'd see across Europe right now.

Yeah and it's not like the Nazis were bad or anything. What you proposed sounds suspiciously like concentration camps, which I'm not particularly comfortable with, and why should people leaving the Middle East for economic reasons be punished anyway? Would you deport yourself from Canada?

 

[Ryika]

What you proposed sounds suspiciously like concentration camps

I don't even know what to say to this.

 

[emzie]

Yeah and it's not like the Nazis were bad or anything. What you proposed sounds suspiciously like concentration camps, which I'm not particularly comfortable with,

It sounds visually similar to concentration camps. What I described is more like a community-sized halfway house. However, I am uneasy with the idea because I think it'd be really simple to turn such a system into a much more sinister system. I'm not sure I trust humans enough to have such a system. But I am willing to consider it, especially if it would allow a political compromise that would bring in more legitimate refugees into the country in way that was safer for people more wary than I am but not totally opposed.

and why should people leaving the Middle East for economic reasons be punished anyway? Would you deport yourself from Canada?

I'm willing to do a lot for refugees, I think it's a moral obligation to protect anyone you can who is fleeing from violence. I don't think that protection extends to having to provide more than shelter, safety, and freedom of religion / culture. I don't think I have a moral obligation to save someone's life, and then pay their mortgage. For the economic migrant I proposed deporting, I'm willing to sacrifice some in the name of fairness, for programs that essentially trade some of my economic growth for the economic growth of multiple people in developing countries. Not on an individual basis, but as a national policy. I'm not willing to go backwards, not voluntarily. Allowing free flow of economic migrants would be really bad for me, and the blunt truth is I like my standard of living and am not interested in being 100% fair.

 

[W|M]

Would you consider someone fleeing economic conditions in, say, Bangladesh, a refugee or an economic migrant, then? The line can be blurry, and in any case, in a growth-focused economy, more people = more good, especially if they're young and able to work. Moving isn't easy, and it's especially hard if you're doing so across borders, doubly so if you have to move by foot to do so. People who are moving with refugees because of economic reasons are moving because their lives are in the gutter, they want to have the opportunity to have a better life, and they don't have many other options

I don't even know what to say to this.

Grant privileges to individuals based on their behaviour (the right to leave camp, for instance), with the aim of graduating people out of the camp and into general society.

Granting conditional rights to people means having to take them away first

 

[emzie]

Would you consider someone fleeing economic conditions in, say, Bangladesh, a refugee or an economic migrant, then? The line can be blurry, and in any case, in a growth-focused economy, more people = more good, especially if they're young and able to work. Moving isn't easy, and it's especially hard if you're doing so across borders, doubly so if you have to move by foot to do so. People who are moving with refugees because of economic reasons are moving because their lives are in the gutter, they want to have the opportunity to have a better life, and they don't have many other options

I support reforms that make my clothing more expensive to ensure safety.

Granting conditional rights to people means having to take them away first

Morally and ethically, maybe. Legally, no.

 

[W|M]

Reforms aren't going to make those workers any less exploited

 

[emzie]

Nope it doesn't, but I'm fine with it taking multiple generations for other countries to catch up as long as they will. That's where I balance my position between what I believe is right and fair and what I'm personally willing to do in the name of fairness.

 

[W|M]

Taking multiple generations to not have Bangladesh-like conditions just makes the death toll higher

 

[emzie]

Taking multiple generations to not have Bangladesh-like conditions just makes the death toll higher

Compare working conditions in the US before the labour rights movement to the working conditions in many developing economies. I don't think working conditions are worse in Bangladesh than they were in New York City a hundred years ago. It's only been 4 or 5 generations, with steady improvement over the span of that (and continuing still).

 

[W|M]

The economic conditions of US workers don't seem to have improved much since the 1980s, and 4 or 5 generations of gradual improvement means having millions of people live in horrible poverty their entire lives, only to still have terrible living conditions at the end of it. Also, you're assuming that Bangladesh is like the US 100 years ago and will have a similar history, which isn't true

 

[innonimatu]

The solution to Bangladesh's poor working conditions cannot be for the whole population of the country to migrate to the US. Even were such a thing possible it would be like bombing countries into democracy: denying those people any ability to improve their country ion their own. I hoped that at least the political left wouldn't fall for the white man's burden? Then the "new left" came along...

Just keep in mind that the same base argument that would justify having to take in economic migrants from less developed countries as refugees ("their lives there are miserable because of lack of organization and good government") would also justify turning those countries back into colonies ("we can manage them better that they can manage themselves"). A very idea to embrace...

 

[Camikaze]

If the far-right wins, it will be interesting to see the international reactions. When Haider & the FPÖ became part of the government in 1999, the EU actually placed sanctions on Austria. Though soon enough they relented and got on with business as usual.

I'm not sure I buy the "we need to work with whoever is elected" rhetoric (although in this case it's the Head of State, not the government, so there'll be no need to 'work with' anyone). If a state is represented by someone with reprehensible views, that should be taken into account when that state is being dealt with. Austrians have the right to determine who is going to be their Head of State, and other states have a right to ensure there are social consequences for that choice.

Unfortunately the EU has been pretty toothless in the face of worrying leaders such as Orban, so I doubt that would change in this case.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Yeah and it's not like the Nazis were bad or anything. What you proposed sounds suspiciously like concentration camps, which I'm not particularly comfortable with, and why should people leaving the Middle East for economic reasons be punished anyway? Would you deport yourself from Canada?

What do you think happened to mass refugee waves in the past before there was the UN providing humanitarian aid ?
The UN "Nazi" should stop providing these "concentration camps" so that the Refugees can do what come naturally to mass group of displaced starving peoples.

As I have said, reasonable orderly immigration with numbers within the ability of the country of to accommodate.
And Austria isnt the only country facing a political backlash.

 

[Dachs]

The solution to Bangladesh's poor working conditions cannot be for the whole population of the country to migrate to the US. Even were such a thing possible it would be like bombing countries into democracy: denying those people any ability to improve their country ion their own. I hoped that at least the political left wouldn't fall for the white man's burden? Then the "new left" came along...

Just keep in mind that the same base argument that would justify having to take in economic migrants from less developed countries as refugees ("their lives there are miserable because of lack of organization and good government") would also justify turning those countries back into colonies ("we can manage them better that they can manage themselves"). A very idea to embrace...

Co-sign.

 

[W|M]

The solution to Bangladesh's poor working conditions cannot be for the whole population of the country to migrate to the US.

Well then it's a good thing I didn't say that

Just keep in mind that the same base argument that would justify having to take in economic migrants from less developed countries as refugees ("their lives there are miserable because of lack of organization and good government") would also justify turning those countries back into colonies ("we can manage them better that they can manage themselves"). A very idea to embrace...

Who said that Bangladeshis have terrible lives because of a lack of organization and good government? They have terrible lives because they're massively exploited by multinational companies. My point is that Bangladeshis should be allowed to go to other countries if they wish to do so, and shouldn't be deported because of political games from Western leaders.

 

[Wastl]

Who said that Bangladeshis have terrible lives because of a lack of organization and good government? They have terrible lives because they're massively exploited by multinational companies. My point is that Bangladeshis should be allowed to go to other countries if they wish to do so, and shouldn't be deported because of political games from Western leaders.

They are perfectly free to ask another country to let them in, nothing more. They have no right to simply enter another country if said country doesn't want them. The whole idea that you just should let everyone roam free and let him go wherever he wants to is idiotic to say the least. If you want to the world to turn into a giant mess with hatred and violence going rampant, your approach would be the best way to achieve that.

A person can ask someone else for help, he cannot just demand it. It would be like someone coming to your house and telling you that he now lives there as well and you better pay for his costs. Somehow I doubt many people would like such a behaviour.

If you go somewhere else, you are a guest, which means your right to stay depends on someone else letting you stay there.

 

[W|M]

Countries aren't houses