My experience with game

[yung.carl.jung]

I would. Maybe not all the initiative, but I also don't want to always be the one initiating contact, suggesting stuff, or taking control (including sex). Sometimes, it's nice to kick back and let other people do stuff. Luckily, many women I have met can get stuff done by themselves, so they don't have the inherent need to have a man, and that's actually great because if you get together and date, that means you are not fulfilling some kind of "i need a husband" role, but are actually a person who genuinely interests her.

Also, my biological clock is ticking, and I really want children, and I want to take care of my children. I would honestly much rather be a stay-at-home dad and see my kids grow up than be a breadwinner for the family.

You can call me "soyboy", but at least I am comfortable and free enough to be who I am and not what society tells me to be.

PS: Oh yeah, I also don't do any pickup stuff because it's very contrived and cringeeeee.

this post has made given me a lot of respect for you. imho you will find that almost all of the women worth being with have this quality (falsely ascribed to men) of taking initiative, be it professional, artistic, or in the bedroom.

I myself would to totally cool to be a stay at home dad. my dad worked from home while my mom was often away til late noon. when I was 13 I started cooking a lot of the family meals after i got home from school.

I have little interest in being a bread-winner, however if I were to stay at home I would most definitely work on the things I actually like to do (my own artistic pursuits) and making those into money would be sweet.

realistically that's not gonna happen, because my line of work likely isn't done at home any time soon, but a man can dream

being confident in one's sexuality and not defining one's gender role by archaic standards is the opposite of soy. add in responsibility, flexibility and the ability to reflect and retract, and that is really what 'being a man' is all about.

Obviously some of us do find them objectionable, since we've said so.

We're adults, not children.

speak for yourself

I have actually told people of all genders "just don't talk to me"... just because I genuinely was not in a mood to talk to them or simply did not like them as people. Also, people have said the same to me... on this forum, btw.

don't talk to me or my son ever again..

 

[Bootstoots]

@Phrossack, I just wanted to say that you and I are basically the same person. I've gotten a little better about the depressive nihilism that you're experiencing, but the whole five years from mid-2013 to mid-2018 was a dark abyss that I'm only just now starting to climb out of, and that I'm legitimately lucky to have survived. The task at hand is how to find some sort of meaning out of living and to pour as much effort as possible into improving ourselves and connecting with people despite the high barriers to doing that in an atomized world with little in the way of deep social networks holding people together. You do, and I do, have quite a bit to offer, and it's worth struggling to figure out how to do that.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Obviously, if you asked not to call you a girl, it will be respectful not to do it.

But what if someone uses the word in context of romantic relationships? I mean sentences like "I date a girl", "girlfriend", etc. are being used all the time and in this context it's clearly not about child. Do you think this usage is ok?

If the female half of the relationship doesn't mind, it's not my place to correct her. I'm speaking for myself and the two other women on this forum who I know do not like being referred to by inappropriate terms.

As for "girlfriend" and "boyfriend"... I've used the latter term, but only because I can't think of a more appropriate one. We were very good friends for many years (starting in high school), and his parents, my mom, and some of our mutual friends started matchmaking when we went out on a few dates (his parents introduced me as his girlfriend when I attended a mess dinner with them)... but ultimately we opted to leave things at very good friends. So the exact term for the relationship was nebulous at times. Then life threw some serious family issues for both of us to deal with (he moved to Edmonton to care for his grandmother while I had to stay home to care for mine). We haven't seen each other now for about 20 years.

speak for yourself

Please realize that my having been raised by my grandparents and mostly associating with their friends (also older adults and senior citizens), some of my attitudes and values skew toward a couple of generations older. I've been deprogramming from some of that (the patriarchal stuff I've mentioned, regarding my grandfather's attitudes toward what was appropriate behavior and opinions from teenage girls), but some other stuff is still there. As I get older, I'm not sure I really want to shake the rest of it, since I'm old enough now to understand more of where they were coming from.

I'm young in my creativity, though. My grandmother never did understand my fascination with RPGs or drawing maps of dungeons or my interest in house blueprints. She wanted me to hide my D&D books from the typing clients because she thought they wouldn't understand. But considering that most of my clients were in the age range of about 18-25, they understood quite well - and loved looking through my collection of SF videos and at the books and buttons and other stuff. That's one of the things some of them mentioned to classmates when giving me a word-of-mouth recommendation as a typist ("she's got all this neat science fiction and gaming stuff around, you should see it!").

And my grandmother would definitely not have understood my pushing myself three times each year for NaNoWriMo. My grandfather wouldn't have understood writing anything that couldn't legally make any money (fanfic can't be professionally published for obvious copyright reasons). But I'm having a blast with it, and haven't missed a day of writing at least a few sentences since November 1 last year on my current story.

 

[Disgustipated]

Here's a question I wonder about.

Is it morally right to hit on a woman? I'm beginning to think it isn't. Unless that woman is into it of course. If you are hitting on women that aren't interested, or worse already in a relationship, you are disturbing them and wasting their time. What makes you think your time is more important than their time? This is where the morality comes from. It's this attitude that men's needs are more important than women's needs, including the need to be left alone. And yes, I make the decision to choose to be single. Call me a volcel. I can honestly say I've never creeped a woman out.

And the affair mentioned in the OP. I will try my best to keep my judgements to myself, but to brag about something so hideous.

 

[The_J]

I want to get to the other side, which isn't sex so much as just having someone there for me.

Man, I think you need to work first on yourself.
This is not only about having someone for you, but also being there for someone.
And it shouldn't be a need.
You're the most attractive when you actually don't "need" someone, but when you, as you are, are having a great time, and oyu invite someone else to participate in your life.

If I fall over to one side by being too slow, not flirting enough, or worrying about not offending women in genral, I fail, but fall into a net. Idiots would call me a wimp, or a coward, but in truth I'd have fallen because I was being considerate.

Or boring .
In a good converation you need to push some buttons. Being considerate about everything makes you boring.

Going on a date and having nothing happen because I was too cautious is a waste of time but isn't a disaster.

That is again a sign that oyu need to work on yourself.
You should consider this a nice time. You don't need to get anything out of this. The nicely spent time should make hte evening itself worth it.

I unfortunately have no colleagues, female or otherwise, near my age. Small office, and pretty much all the women are married. My female friends are not options for dating for various reasons. And I think it's very dangerous to date someone you regularly see already, especially if you and they have mutual friends. A bad breakup could have nasty fallout. My city's big but empty, and most of the women my age here are dating, married, or not my type. There are almost no chances to meet women my age around here in person at this point in my life.

This means that going out gaming is even more important for you, because chances are rare.
But you are right about dating friends. This needs to be done very carefully.

Here's a question I wonder about.

Is it morally right to hit on a woman? I'm beginning to think it isn't. Unless that woman is into it of course. If you are hitting on women that aren't interested, or worse already in a relationship, you are disturbing them and wasting their time. What makes you think your time is more important than their time?

In general: My time is for me more important than anyone else' time. And this might be fun.
No matter if it's while hitting on someone (which doesn't need to be sexist; I could be hitting on a man; a woman could be hitting on a woman), or at any other point in life. You could ask this yourself during any conversation. Why are you talking to colleagues at work? Should you not be working? Is their time not worth so much that this chat is a waste of everyone's time? Yes, purely logical maybe. But with that rationality, you need to abandon every fun in life. And you should never again in your life to talk to anyone. Not even your parents. They are busy man, don't waste their time!

We're also talking here about a time frame of maybe 10 minutes in a random person's life. You are probably able to suffer through that. Although you shouldn't, because I'll try to make the conversation fun, and hopefully everyone else too. And for someone else, I might make their day, that is also possible . What are a few minor inconveniences for a few people in contrast to maybe finding the love of your life? Your choice, but it's your life. You need to set priorities.

EDIT: "minor inconveniences" is one of the key points here. I don't suggest bogging someone done for hours, or robbing their home, because my life is more important than theirs. 10 minutes chat, at max, if it's not going well. Nothing more.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Here's a question I wonder about.

Is it morally right to hit on a woman? I'm beginning to think it isn't. Unless that woman is into it of course. If you are hitting on women that aren't interested, or worse already in a relationship, you are disturbing them and wasting their time. What makes you think your time is more important than their time? This is where the morality comes from. It's this attitude that men's needs are more important than women's needs, including the need to be left alone. And yes, I make the decision to choose to be single. Call me a volcel. I can honestly say I've never creeped a woman out.

And the affair mentioned in the OP. I will try my best to keep my judgements to myself, but to brag about something so hideous.

I don't think its wrong. How do you know if they are interested or in a relationship unless you try. And vice versa since I have hit on guys (although not as often as they have hit on me) in the past. To me the creeps are the ones who assume consent, who won't take no for an answer, the ones who make judgements on you (shes frigid, shes a slut etc) because you don't fall in with their expectations. I think you're dead on with attitudes towards needs though. Not that its always men who are in the wrong here, we all tend to put our own needs before others unless we actually stop and think about it.

 

[red_elk]

Is it morally right to hit on a woman? I'm beginning to think it isn't. Unless that woman is into it of course. If you are hitting on women that aren't interested, or worse already in a relationship, you are disturbing them and wasting their time.

Regardless of gender, there's nothing wrong with it, unless another person made it clear that (s)he is not interested.
If she did though, continuing to pursue her will be wasting your time first and foremost, not hers.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Regardless of gender, there's nothing wrong with it, unless another person made it clear that (s)he is not interested.
If she did though, continuing to pursue her will be wasting your time first and foremost, not hers.

Although if you continue beyond a certain point its harrassment. Now exactly where that point is is difficult to determine.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Is it morally right to hit on a woman? I'm beginning to think it isn't.

"Hit on" includes a pretty broad range of actions. What specifically isn't moral? How much time is too much, and how does that rationale extend to other things that waste comparable or more time (and in contrast to this example, are sometimes guaranteed to do so)?

In terms of affairs, while the person hitting on someone who is already with someone else is being unethical (assuming one knows), the person cheating is even more unethical and has a greater failing of responsibility by a margin.

 

[Tarquelne]

For the gettting friends or something... I'm also sure that you've heard about the term "friend zone". Means: There is a track record of this not working. Even if you manage it: You still need to make the move to approach the person, indicating sexual interest. And that is with friends even more scary, and not much different from getting a date with a random person.

It can work. It worked well for me. I think the mistake is thinking of it as a way of dating. It's more of an alternative to dating. You wait until a friendship grows naturally into something more, and then start doing stuff as a couple. Yes, someone has to put themself out there first, but this can be at a point where they're pretty darn certain the other person will say, "Yes."

If you want to replace dating with starting-as-friends, you need to have a lot of friends who are women. The great majority of the friendships won't go past friendship. I think the bad rep. "friend zoning" has comes from men presuming too much on too-few female friendships.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

@Phrossack, I just wanted to say that you and I are basically the same person. I've gotten a little better about the depressive nihilism that you're experiencing, but the whole five years from mid-2013 to mid-2018 was a dark abyss that I'm only just now starting to climb out of, and that I'm legitimately lucky to have survived. The task at hand is how to find some sort of meaning out of living and to pour as much effort as possible into improving ourselves and connecting with people despite the high barriers to doing that in an atomized world with little in the way of deep social networks holding people together. You do, and I do, have quite a bit to offer, and it's worth struggling to figure out how to do that.

Is it ok to ask you to elaborate about the dark abyss you experienced? Were you unemployed , physically/mentally abused, or some other type of situation? Was it diagnosed depression that you had to take medication for?

I am asking because I also had some time being in the "abyss", but it was because I was unemployed and almost homeless and had nothing going on for me (this was also the time I radicalized politically and realized the rich are just getting richer, while people who don't start with a lot of money have trouble getting anywhere in life). At the same time, I think I always stayed positive and continued enjoying the little things I had in life back then. I think I had some thoughts about life and death, but I would have never killed myself, for example. The Internet and free things like YouTube definitely brought joy to my life.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It can work. It worked well for me. I think the mistake is thinking of it as a way of dating. It's more of an alternative to dating. You wait until a friendship grows naturally into something more, and then start doing stuff as a couple. Yes, someone has to put themself out there first, but this can be at a point where they're pretty darn certain the other person will say, "Yes."

It CAN work, but I wouldn't recommend it for someone who's already romantically interested in someone else. Someone else can just straight up ask them out first for one, and for two this kind of approach has different expectations/likely requires more subtlety in reading likely reactions.

It's different if you're just legit starting as friends and that's all you have in mind initially. As a word of caution, while getting "friend zoned" can suck, it also doesn't feel good to reject a friend who's interested in more. If you're interested in more than friends it often makes more sense to just ask the person out from the start.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

What if I like spaghetti and some women don't? Not the end of the world, I guess.
We are free to ignore each other's preferences, unless we are in close relationships.

Ok, but what does this have to do with your original claims about flirting and taking initiative?

I was once in a situation when woman I know asked me out, but I didn't like her and had to refuse. That was very awkward, because of this "reversed gender roles" situation.

I doubt you would like to live in a world where women take all the initiative. And I'm sure most of women wouldn't like that too. They already have a choice to take initiative, but 99% of them prefer not to.

 

[red_elk]

Ok, but what does this have to do with your original claims about flirting and taking initiative?

Not much. This was my answer to your question, what if some women don't share my preferences.

Edit: By "reversed gender roles" I meant that due to culture norms it was unusual situation to me, and most likely to that girl too.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Boys, please do remember "misandry" isn't a real word, it's a very sexist and misogynistic thing to say, and there's no such thing as reverse sexism (just like with racism). You can have women who hate men for sure and blame men for problems, but that's not at all the same thing, you know? Misogyny's opposite is feminism.

This stuff is just unpleasant to read. Please stop.

 

[MaryKB]

This stuff is just unpleasant to read. Please stop.

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over your patriarchal privilege. What an incredibly ignorant thing for you to say, but I can't say I'm at all surprised.

Moderator Action: Make your point, but do not resort to personal attacks. Warned for flaming. --LM
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over your patriarchal privilege. What an incredibly ignorant thing for you to say, but I can't say I'm at all surprised.

Well, what a convincing retort.

Despite my position of patriarchy privelige, do you know something that I've never done? Something I wouldn't even remotely consider doing actually?

I've never addressed a group of women, told them that their concerns are not real, that the word for their concerns (which is widely recognised as a word) doesn't even exist, and that to even talk about it is disgustingly offensive. And that if they want to be considered anything other than a horrendous and nasty person, they should shut up and adopt my own mode of thinking. And then if any of them complain about it, make out that it's their problem and just more evidence of how horrible they are.

I can't even begin to wrap my head around the level of self-importance and entitlement (and probably hatred) that would be required to do something like that. And it's funny because if I did do something like that I'd expect you to be the first person to point out that behaviour for exactly what it was. It doesn't take much privilege to object to something like that, but by heck it requires quite a dose of it to act that way in the first place.

I'd like to end on a quote which I find particularly appropriate here - "what an incredibly ignorant thing for you to say, but I can't say I'm at all surprised."

Moderator Action: If someone is flaming or trolling you, do not flame or troll in return. Report the user and let us deal with it. --LM
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I've never addressed a group of women,

This I can certainly believe.

 

[Farm Boy]

I'm guessing the conversation is pretty much all metaphorical dick measuring from here on out then, eh? Feed the Dammaz Kron!

 

[Lexicus]

Despite my position of patriarchy privelige, do you know something that I've never done? Something I wouldn't even remotely consider doing actually?

The funny thing is you've done this multiple times on this site but yeah I believe you wouldn't do it in person.