Nazis in Ukraine

[Lexicus]

You Russian propagandists need to keep up to date. De-nazifying was last week's reason to obliterate Ukraine. This week's reason is "chemical weapons" and "weaponizing birds to deliver viruses to Russia".

Me?

 

[Henri Christophe]

Frankly, both the United States and Russia far more "Nazified" than Ukraine is...

Show sources, since the biggining of this war I'm seeing a lot of stuffs about Nazis in Ukraine, but anyone are sharing about Nazis in USA or Russia.
The Nazi party is forbiden in Russia and USA. But in Ukraine it is legalized(!). I understand the nazi party have few votes in election, but, still there is a nazi party what should be forbiden in a serious country.

Last month a guy from Brazil was in jail just because he said (I want to do a Nazi party), just that was enoutgh to Brazilian governement decide destroy his life, just that.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I understand the nazi party have few votes in election, but, still there is a nazi party what should be forbiden in a serious country.

given the west's propensity to call things "nazi" which are not in recent history, this sounds dangerous.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Evidently Russian state TV has started suggesting that Russia should leave Ukraine to denazify itself.

So we in the west can maybe stop worrying over this bogus pretext for the invasion.

Maybe turn our attention to our own denazification.

 

[Henri Christophe]

given the west's propensity to call things "nazi" which are not in recent history, this sounds dangerous.

for me. dangerous is to have a nazi party.

 

[Lexicus]

Show sources, since the biggining of this war I'm seeing a lot of stuffs about Nazis in Ukraine, but anyone are sharing about Nazis in USA or Russia.

Here is a source on the Russian Imperial Movement:
https://www.spytalk.co/p/russian-group-aims-to-lead-global?s=r

Putin's forces are also evidently using Nazi tactics such as terror-bombing civilians, and Putin's Russia is obviously far more authoritarian than Zelensky's Ukraine.

In the US the Republican Party is increasingly coalescing around rigging elections to ensure their electoral dominance as an open platform plank, and we have our own problems with white supremacist violence (not all of them in avowedly neo-Nazi organizations but the whole constellation of Klan, neo-Nazis and other weird white supremacist sects can be fairly termed Nazis imo).

Anyway here is a source on how the conflict is likely to make all problems with Nazism in both Russia and Ukraine (and, I would argue, elsewhere) worse, not better.

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/05/1084...strengthen-neo-fascist-groups-in-both-countri


And an article about Ukraine's Nazi issues:
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opini...-putin-s-denazification-claim-war-ncna1290946

 

[Berzerker]

Have you ever seen a real 'Nazi' - a card carrying member of a nationalist-socialist party ?

Could it be you confuse fascists and Nazis ?

No, but I'm sure if I spent any time with the Azov regiment I'd get a thorough education.

Two EU officials 'speculating' or 'discussing' the possibility the snipers was done on orders from the new government is not proof. The Estonian foreign minister's statement (hacked phone call) was just repeating a rumor he heard, he had no evidence either. A medic/doctor may be able to identify gun shot wounds, but to definitively say they came 'from the same gun'? No, you need ballistic tests for that, not a observation from a doctor named 'Olga'.
48 protestors shot and 4 police. Yes, maybe some of the protestors shot back at the police after protestors were being fired on.

from what I understood this was not mere speculation but his investigation and 189 cops were shot and 18 killed, I'm not sure the death tally for each day. The BBC interviewed one of the shooters, they were supposed to shoot people on both sides.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

for me. dangerous is to have a nazi party.

the problem when you take a sufficiently liberal definition of "nazi", you can then make a lot of people "go away" politically, even if their actual beliefs or platform in no way resembles 1930s-1940s germany

if i claim you are a nazi and block you from organizing politically, i should have some basis that you're actually angling as such, and not simply resisting subsidizing colleges or something

 

[drewisfat]

Me?

Nah, following your post was coincidence. Not that I pretend to know anyone's true beliefs or motives on here, but I have you pegged as someone who has been passionately fighting American injustices for a long time. I might agree with you, though in topics like this it can risk feeding false equivalence.

 

[Snowygerry]

No, but I'm sure if I spent any time with the Azov regiment I'd get a thorough education.

Before you go. Let me share some wisdom passed on from the previous century -

ignore the ones in uniform they're clowns , those in plain clothes are actually more dangerous, but beware of those with just an armband.

 

[Lexicus]

Before you go. Let me share some wisdom passed on from the previous century -

ignore the ones in uniform they're clowns , those in plain clothes are actually more dangerous, but beware of those with just an armband.

Azov could be compared to the foreign volunteer units of the Waffen SS, who were uniformed soldiers and most of whom I certainly wouldn't describe as clowns.

 

[Snowygerry]

Azov could be compared to the foreign volunteer units of the Waffen SS, who were uniformed soldiers and most of whom I certainly wouldn't describe as clowns.

I met some of those yes, some lived quite comfortably into the 1990s in Spain and South America.

You'd never guess.

 

[Lexicus]

Are you persistently promoting this fake? Well, let's take a look at Wikipedia:

"RIM is part of a broader cluster of extreme-right "political Orthodoxy" groups in Russia that promote monarchy (specifically, by idolizing Russia's tsarist past), and draw inspiration from the violent, antisemitic Black Hundreds of early 20th century Russia.[6] Others within the movement include the groups "For Faith and Fatherland" and the modern revival of the "Union of the Russian People."[6] Websites connected to RIM espouse antisemitism.[6]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Imperial_Movement

Which group is this fake organization a part of? We read the following article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Militia_named_after_Minin_and_Pozharsky

"The NOMP includes representatives of the Union of Officers, the Movement Against Illegal Immigration (DPNI), the Russian Imperial Movement, the Russian All-National Union (RONS), the Military Power Union of Russia, and the Left Front. NOMP cells were established in more than forty regions of Russia.[5]"

And finally, we open the website of the "National Anti-Terrorist Committee of Russia":
: http://nac.gov.ru/terroristicheskie-i-ekstremistskie-organizacii-i-materialy.html

Suddenly, at number 24, we see the "All-Russian Public Movement" People's Militia named after K. Minin and D. Pozharsky "". Banned and designated as a terrorist organization. Thus, all militants included in the fake RIM movement, openly professing Nazi ideology, automatically fall into the category of this general Nazi association, and are immediately brought to criminal responsibility.

But, of course, no one can forbid you to continue to study the yellow press, and continue to believe that there are Nazis in Russia.

The second link I posted actually directly addresses this:

HEIDI BEIRICH: The thinking is, is that Putin tolerates this group because it sows discord in Western countries and causes problems. And so as long as the Russian Imperial Movement doesn't do anything to disrupt internal Russian politics, he appears to tolerate it.

 

[Lexicus]

A certain person, HEIDI BEIRICH, said that "he thinks that Putin tolerates the Nazis." This, in your opinion, is proof of the existence of the Nazis in Russia? This is open speculation and demagogy.

These people from RIM may actually exist. Nobody forbids them to think about anything, even about Nazism. In Russia, unlike Western countries, they do not punish thought crimes. However, if such a hidden Nazi tries to say something out loud in defense of Nazism, he will be immediately repressed.
All open Nazi organizations are absolutely prohibited in Russia. Which of course does not exclude their existence in an illegal position. For example, in the US there are Al Qaeda and ISIS cells. Does this make the US a country where the ideology of Islamic hatred is allowed?

I think you are being excessively defensive. I do not believe that Russia, the United States, or Ukraine are sufficiently "Nazified" to justify a brutal invasion using terroristic methods.

Here is some of what Putin's "denazification" operation has meant for Ukrainian Jews: https://newsletters.theatlantic.com...fication-of-ukraine-really-looks-like-odessa/

Religious Jews like Kruskal and the children in his care normally do not travel or use electricity from sundown on Friday to Saturday night, in observance of the Jewish sabbath. But Jewish law permits the violation of the sabbath for pikuach nefesh—the preservation of human life. And so the community drove through shabbat, stopping at a gas station to make kiddush, the traditional blessing over the wine.

“You never expect to be standing in front of hundreds of people in your care in the middle of a cold gas station in Ukraine and making kiddush for them and they’re crying,” Kruskal said. “It was very overwhelming.”

 

[Gorbles]

Let's repeat once again, for the full assimilation of this information: "All Nazi organizations in Russia are strictly prohibited." And we will no longer return to the discussion of this issue.

You can say something, but it doesn't make it fact. You push for verified evidence of claims made - why do you not offer the same in return?

 

[Broken_Erika]

It's not really a "Nazi" organization.

 

[Lexicus]

You can say something, but it doesn't make it fact. You push for verified evidence of claims made - why do you not offer the same in return?

Easy enough to verify that "Nazi" groups - however exactly defined - are formally banned in Russia. That's not the real point, though, the real point is that, the Russian state's powers to deal with people doesn't like being much greater than those of most Western states, any groups that exist in an "illegal state", as Buck2005 puts it, implicitly do so with the tacit approval or tolerance of the state.

But anyway, the RIM is secondary to the real point. The leader of Russia uses Nazi slogans, and his armies use Nazi tactics. Those are much more pressing concerns than the precise status of RIM.

 

[Gorbles]

I refer to Wikipedia and the official website of the Russian government. My opponents cite value judgments and speculations by unknown persons from the yellow press.

I think the original purpose of this false discussion is to divert the discussion from the real (and stated in the title of the thread) topic "Nazism in Ukraine". Nazis are legal in this country. They have legal political parties and legal armed formations.

And how is the holy law of Wikipedia enforced by the Russian government? How is the content described on its own website enforced?

It's not a "false discussion". The claim of "tu quoque" has been discussed previously, with both myself and El_Mac. You ignored counterarguments then, and I see no reason why you won't continue to do so now, but (Neo-) Nazis are legal (or "legal") in a variety of countries. Hate speech laws are problematic to define and moreso to enforce, which allows a certain amount of leeway (regardless of how morally-correct this leeway is). The UK, for example, bans such people on a per-group basis. Individual cases are dealt with on the basis of terror laws (which cover far more than Nazi ideology specifically - in fact they've drawn criticism for being too broad). Like I said previously - this is not a problem that's unique to Ukraine. Your claim is that it was, and that's what is being refuted here.

Because Putin is invading under the pretext of "denazifying" Ukraine, right? Hard to do that when other countries - Russia included - tolerate such groups when it suits them.

Easy enough to verify that "Nazi" groups - however exactly defined - are formally banned in Russia. That's not the real point, though, the real point is that, the Russian state's powers to deal with people doesn't like being much greater than those of most Western states, any groups that exist in an "illegal state", as Buck2005 puts it, implicitly do so with the tacit approval or tolerance of the state.

But anyway, the RIM is secondary to the real point. The leader of Russia uses Nazi slogans, and his armies use Nazi tactics. Those are much more pressing concerns than the precise status of RIM.

Oh, for sure. My point was more to do with the implementation and enforcement of words that could otherwise be described as lip service. Buck seems to be a fan of up-to-date physical evidence of such things, so his reliance on the written word seems a tad far-fetched for my liking.

 

[Gorbles]

The US invaded Afghanistan in 2003 under the pretext of destroying al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda illegal cells still exist in the US. So the US is a country that is covering for Islamic terrorists and using bogus pretexts to invade other countries. Did I understand your logic correctly?

...

Same question. Are you sure that the United States is guaranteed to pursue all illegal terrorist cells on its territory? Or they "turn a blind eye" to their existence as long as it is beneficial for them.

You seem to be labouring under the incredibly mistaken assumption that a) I'm from the US and that b) I in any way support the invasion of Afghanistan. You'd, uh, be wrong on both counts

 

[Henri Christophe]

I think the original purpose of this false discussion is to divert the discussion from the real (and stated in the title of the thread) topic "Nazism in Ukraine". Nazis are legal in this country. They have legal political parties and legal armed formations.

It's terrible to have a Nazi party, they should be ilegal!!!

However, please answer the question. Do you think that the US invasion of Afghanistan under a "fake" pretext and Putin's invasion of Ukraine under a "fake" pretext are the same thing? )

Yes it is. American invasion is a bit worst because Sadam Hussein was a cool guy.