Nazis in Ukraine

[El_Machinae]

I getcha, good point, especially if we're going to try to measures the level of Nazi infection. Beams and motes spring to mind, if that conversation spirals.

Tolerance for neo-Nazis will depend on their geostrategic utility, regardless. Everything after that is just memes.

I wouldn't let any discussion about fascist movements detract from just watching the geostrategic implications as motivation.

 

[Kyriakos]

It is pretty different to have nazi or neo-nazi movements in countries that aren't historically allies (or pretty much tantamount to allies) of nazi Germany in ww2. Because in the case of those who were allies, their national myth can easily be linked to either their version of the nazi movement (Ustase in Croatia, as noted) or individual SS units in those countries during ww2. And many countries had such regional SS units - even Albania did, and I suppose (?) occupied/"liberated" ww2 parts of Ukraine might have had too.

It's another phenomenon to have nazi/neo nazi movement in countries which fought against nazi Germany. For example, afaik the golden dawn was mostly tied inspiration-wise to the government of Metaxas, who was prime minister when Italy invaded. It did have emblems which are eerily similar to the swastica, but not quite as official as the Black Sun or the swastica.

Last, but not least, there is also the case of having nazi/neo-nazis in Germany itself

 

[Zardnaar]

It is pretty different to have nazi or neo-nazi movements in countries that aren't historically allies (or pretty much tantamount to allies) of nazi Germany in ww2. Because in the case of those who were allies, their national myth can easily be linked to either their version of the nazi movement (Ustase in Croatia, as noted) or individual SS units in those countries during ww2. And many countries had such regional SS units - even Albania did, and I suppose (?) occupied/"liberated" ww2 parts of Ukraine might have had too.

It's another phenomenon to have nazi/neo nazi movement in countries which fought against nazi Germany. For example, afaik the golden dawn was mostly tied inspiration-wise to the government of Metaxas, who was prime minister when Italy invaded. It did have emblems which are eerily similar to the swastica, but not quite as official as the Black Sun or the swastica.

Last, but not least, there is also the case of having nazi/neo-nazis in Germany itself

Problem was for us it's Nazis bad in eastern Europe it's a bit murkier due to Stalin's actions Nazis were seen as liberators. Mainly in parts of Ukraine and Baltic states.

 

[Remorseless1]

Man, this is stupid. Are there Nazis in Ukraine. There are Nazi groups in almost every European country several South American countries, and Anglo-Saxon countries such as the US, Canada, and Australia. And, as stated above, in Russia as well. Lots of places need denazification. Vladdy boy has his work cut out for him...

The key is how much sway Nazis have over a nation's government. So in the case of Ukraine, is there evidence of Nazi involvement in Ukraine's government? Outside of a tiny fringe party, the Ukrainian government is a center-right democracy led by a Jewish president. So no matter how much spin is put on this, the claim of denazification is without merit or evidence. Let's move to the next attempt by the Putinists to justify the slaughter going on in Ukraine right now.

 

[Verbose]

There are neo-Nazis even in Israel. Maybe Putin should invade?
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1741659010393937?journalCode=cmca

 

[Berzerker]

Facebook reversed its policy, people can praise Nazis in Ukraine. How soon before criticizing them is verboten? The Nazis are fighting for us, oh joy

2 minutes in, Yevhen Karas, leader of C14 (youth Svoboda), explaining Maidan but no mention of snipers. He mocked the people trying to downplay their role, they made it happen. And he takes credit for starting war with Russia, they foresee an alliance with Turkey, Poland and Britain walling off Russia I presume.

9 minutes in Biden shakes hands with a Nazi leader. Now I understand leaders have to make nice with all sorts of bad people (both bad in this case) but it does show the pull the Nazi faction has within the country.

18 minutes in Zelensky visited Donetsk to tell the Nazis they had to demilitarize that area and they told him to bugger off and he did.

Are you also surprised people are downplaying the existence of Nazis in the Ukraine as an excuse to invade a country?

To analyze motives looking for solutions. Is Putin nuts and trying to conquer the old empire as a legacy or are Russians pissed off by a war Nazis waged on their doorstep for 8 years with our support? Just implement Minsk... But if Putin is crazy expanding the war is inevitable. Course our leaders know his motives but the west has all sorts of reasons to lie. Arming Nazis to attack people who dont want to be ruled by Nazis is not a good look.

As you can see from the video of the Nazi leader, they were the muscle behind Maidan and the take over. He said Maidan would have been a gay parade without them. And they were the ones leading the assault in the east and the killers in Odesa and pogroms around the country to make sure everyone knew to keep quiet if they didn't like it.

If the aim is fighting Nazis, and there are Nazis in Russia, Poetin could fight Nazis without having to invade a country.

The aim is ending the war in Donbas and making sure Ukraine stays neutral. Zelensky ran promising peace, the Nazis disagreed. So did the USA of course. He was outnumbered 2 to 1 - democracy, yay.

Also, the people dying in the Ukraine right now because of the Russian invasion, aren't Nazis.

The Azov regiment is based in Mariupol... Both sides will be hunting for war criminals.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm sure there are probably a few more there than there were in the trucker convoy, but this still feels more like propaganda than a serious factor in the war.

 

[Strong Reaction]

summary of post- nazis, nazis, Donbass, Maidan nazis, nazis accusations of genocide, Azov Battalion, nazis ad infinitum...



.

Should I just call you Jimmy Dore? Since all your doing is putting up his opinions from his podcast/videos and regurgitating them in the forum.
When you defer to a talk show as evidence then you concede your own opinion.

"During the COVID-19 pandemic, Dore pushed misleading claims about the efficacy and safety of vaccines[40][41][42] and ivermectin.[43]" Hmm sounds eerily familiar to "your" opinion in another thread.

 

[Berzerker]

you mean like get the vaccine and you wont get covid or get the vaccine and you wont spread it to others?

I watch JD enough to know when he screws up and when his critics are blowing smoke, but you're more than welcome to back that up in whatever thread is deemed on topic.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Watched the video, or at least a good chunk of it...... So, a very large portion of the beginning (or as much as I could suffer through), of his 'facts' were statements from the neo-nazi, who no doubt was overstating his (and his group's) importance, because.....that's what fringe groups will do, they want to make it seem like they are important.

 

[Berzerker]

And he mocked that argument and he said people making it were never in a war. That 'fringe' spearheaded the war in the east and led pograms against various 'undesirables'. Imagine the problem this caused in Israel:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...top-arming-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-1.6248727

Even if these weapons are currently directed at Russians, one should take into account the reasonable possibility that in the future they will be used to achieve other goals, perhaps aimed at minority groups in the country. It will then be too late to halt the collaboration of the Israeli establishment with the murder of Jews and others. This will be one more chapter in the dismal history of using Israeli firearms in acts such as these.

I think that article came out around the same time Congress was pretending to care. The guy who killed all those people in NZ was connected to Azov

BBC interviewed one of the snipers at Maidan

 

[Berzerker]

"We've got 8 years of evidence, including newspaper articles, media segments, photographs, and the Nazis themselves bragging about what they've done in Ukraine on video

The Rebuttal "Zelenskyy is Jewish"

tweet from Black in the Empire

"Zelensky is Jewish" means no neo-Nazis in exactly the same way "Obama is Black" meant no racists

tweet from Gritty is the way

 

[RuneMask]

It seems to me that the Ukrainians referred to the Nazi symbols and Stefan Bandera because they simply didn't have any other heroes or myths. Ukraine is a country with a very short history of statehood, I hope they are done with it now - when they finally make history and real heroes

 

[Birdjaguar]

@Berzerker I watched the entire BBC video.

• Nazis were not mentioned at all
• The shooter they interviewed never revealed who recruited him
• The two "theories" they mentioned were: the Russians started the shooting to create a reason to attack Ukraine and the CIA orchestrated it.
• The two shooters in the morning shot three policemen who then killed all the protestors.
• The third afternoon shooter killed one protestor.
• It presented no answers to who killed the three police and started the massacre.
• Azov group was not mentioned.

What was clear is that some third party recruited shooters to fire at the police to provoke them into shooting the protestors.

In other words it does not support any of your pro Nazi postings. Your mention of the NZ shooter baseless and unconnected. Your link, as usual, is way out of date (2014) and the video not much better, 2015.

 

[Berzerker]

It seems to me that the Ukrainians referred to the Nazi symbols and Stefan Bandera because they simply didn't have any other heroes or myths. Ukraine is a country with a very short history of statehood, I hope they are done with it now - when they finally make history and real heroes

They're making them now... but its a bit like southern boys and their hero worship of people like Lee and Stonewall Jackson

 

[Strong Reaction]

you mean like get the vaccine and you wont get covid or get the vaccine and you wont spread it to others?

I watch JD enough to know when he screws up and when his critics are blowing smoke, but you're more than welcome to back that up in whatever thread is deemed on topic.

I never heard anyone of relevance claim if you get the vax you'd be 100 percent immunized. Literally anyone with credibility wouldn't say that. I also never heard anyone with medical credibility say having the vaccine made you incapable of spreading it (covid). The above while not on topic is relevant since it speaks to the way in which you get your information and disseminate it. Its relevant to the half truth Nazis in Ukraine distraction you push.

On topic 1st you are all in when it comes to believing/pushing Putin's party line. Literally you're argument is identical to his ,you don't have your own opinion about the matter you just repeat party propaganda.

 

[Berzerker]

@Berzerker I watched the entire BBC video.

• Nazis were not mentioned at all
• The shooter they interviewed never revealed who recruited him
• The two "theories" they mentioned were: the Russians started the shooting to create a reason to attack Ukraine and the CIA orchestrated it.
• The two shooters in the morning shot three policemen who then killed all the protestors.
• The third afternoon shooter killed one protestor.
• It presented no answers to who killed the three police and started the massacre.
• Azov group was not mentioned.

What was clear is that some third party recruited shooters to fire at the police to provoke them into shooting the protestors.

In other words it does not support any of your pro Nazi postings. Your mention of the NZ shooter baseless and unconnected. Your link, as usual, is way out of date (2014) and the video not much better, 2015.

The NZ shooter visited Ukraine and apparently displayed Azov symbolism. I have not made pro-Nazi posts. The shooter didn't identify himself as a Nazi but the shooters took up positions controlled by the Nazis.

I posted the video to show this was a coup. You said it yourself, a 3rd party recruited shooters. And the EU investigator reported to the EU the shooters were there on behalf of somebody on the coalition side. That means it wasn't Moscow or the Ukrainian govt under attack, close to 200 cops were shot. Judging by the reaction of the EU people on the phone call, the EU wasn't behind it either. Her reaction was more like, uh oh, big daddy was behind it. That leaves Nazis and the USA... and if it wasn't the USA then we're covering for the people who are responsible. Game of Clue anyone?

 

[Berzerker]

I never heard anyone of relevance claim if you get the vax you'd be 100 percent immunized. Literally anyone with credibility wouldn't say that. I also never heard anyone with medical credibility say having the vaccine made you incapable of spreading it (covid). The above while not on topic is relevant since it speaks to the way in which you get your information and disseminate it. Its relevant to the half truth Nazis in Ukraine distraction you push.

On topic 1st you are all in when it comes to believing/pushing Putin's party line. Literally you're argument is identical to his ,you don't have your own opinion about the matter you just repeat party propaganda.

Biden told us

 

[El_Machinae]

NZ shooter wasn't 'connected' to Azov, but he definitely felt some kinship towards them.

I never heard anyone of relevance claim if you get the vax you'd be 100 percent immunized. Literally anyone with credibility wouldn't say that. I also never heard anyone with medical credibility say having the vaccine made you incapable of spreading it (covid)

Yours might be a sharp interpretation of what was said, but I definitely remember early talk about the minimum amount of vaccination to get herd immunity. I'd have to say it was the common motivation of everyone I knew that got the AZ initial shot. Because of that zeitgeist, whatever cautionary words were being said about the virus evolving around the vaccine were being ignored. Obviously, it didn't help that there was a very large 'hesitant' movement trying to convince us that the vaccine would make us more susceptible to future variants.

I scrolled through some CFC history on the Azov Battalion, insofar as we 'knew' about it, Crimea must be far enough outside of our collective caring that there wasn't really much said. My impression is that Eastern Europe has been slipping pretty far in the current culture war that the United States and Western Europe is only playing at. But there's not enough crossover in comradeship for people to care much.

 

[amadeus]

That’s all a good point—we go back these 8 years and no one cares about Ukrainian Nazis, now Russia is trying to swallow Eastern Europe and we can’t defend Ukraine because NAZIS!

“I’m against the invasion, but, Nazis.”

Something is fishy about this whole thing.