Zack
99% hot gas
Why not post a poll in both of the relevant subforums? Here any random person can vote in it.
NES/IOT Merger Poll
- Thread starter EQandcivfanatic
- Start date
That option was discussed at one point I believe. It was decided upon a single poll, with links in relevant threads in both subforums. Really there's pros and cons to each approach, so we're just going with this one. If there's issues, we'll deal with them as they come up.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
The NESing forum has revived somewhat in the past few weeks. Given that there's no credible plan for how a merger would work, and given that IOT/NES cross-pollination is only a click away, I'm going to vote no for now. I'm not opposed to the idea of a merger forever, but this proposal right now is fairly vague and underdeveloped. I don't like the idea of passing the bill to find out what's in it. 
I would rather vote on SPECIFIC merger proposals, including names and the future mission statement of a united forum, rather than the vague idea of a merger, only to later find out that the merger didn't go as planned.
"Popular support" is also a highly vague indication. Is that 51%? 65%? 85%? Ultimately the usage of that term, rather than a coherent cutoff, makes me wonder about the decision making process, since whether or not the support is popular enough to justify a merge ultimately comes down to the decision of the moderators, in which case it isn't truly a democratic decision.
Furthermore, if we can have a poll about this, why can't we have a poll about PDMA policies?
I would rather vote on SPECIFIC merger proposals, including names and the future mission statement of a united forum, rather than the vague idea of a merger, only to later find out that the merger didn't go as planned.
"Popular support" is also a highly vague indication. Is that 51%? 65%? 85%? Ultimately the usage of that term, rather than a coherent cutoff, makes me wonder about the decision making process, since whether or not the support is popular enough to justify a merge ultimately comes down to the decision of the moderators, in which case it isn't truly a democratic decision.
Furthermore, if we can have a poll about this, why can't we have a poll about PDMA policies?
@Thlayli: The plan is simple, if a yes vote took place, a merger would just be the two bunches of threads under one title instead of two. That's the main course of the whole thing. Additional stuff to be decided are best to wait until it's actually decided if a merger would happen at all for discussion by the entire community. That's the reasoning behind this fairly simple "yes or no" response. Things like titles, FAQs threads, and so forth would be put together by the community during the time before the actual merger took place. Personally I feel that's the best way for everyone to have input on what the merged community would become, rather than dictating what the merged community is before it's even begun.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
More players doesn't mean anything considering the IOTers and NESers who were going to crossover already did so. Putting the groups together without a plan is only going to cause more of the issues presented during Inclusivity Gate. And since you can't openly question moderator action on CFC, and also can't say no to people joining a game, of any sort, this is just chaos waiting to happen. A merger isn't out of the question, but a merger with no plan and not asking the wider hobby community is foolish.
Also this reinforces bad moderating/administrating behavior that got us in trouble to begin with.
Not to mention the push to rewrite the sticky threads is a good chance for CFC leadership to expunge mention of places they dislike.
thomas.berubeg
Wandering the World
For what it's worth, I also agree that this poll should also be posted on the fronteir. Those who are members both here and there should have a say in the future of this community, even if they don't spend much time here: I am of the opinion, very well stated by North King, that our hobby should NOT be bound to a single URL, but seeded across the internet.
@Thlayli (and luckymoose): As already said, this is just to determine whether or not there should be a merger. We're not going to do it overnight if the vote is a yes. At the same time, we're not going to painstakingly plan out a merger and all of its details beforehand, because we're not made of time and infinite energy in case of a "no" vote. It's just not reasonable. If the vote is "yes" we'll be taking plenty of time and effort to make sure everything goes smoothly with input from the community every step of the way. Nothing will be done instantly, as we're as interested in making sure that it's a community event rather than just something done by fiat over a couple of days. I can't comment on PDMA stuff or polls, as I honestly don't care about any of that stuff and it's not my realm of expertise. This isn't the place for that discussion, there's other threads on it I believe.
EDIT: Furthermore, and this is my own opinion, and not to be reflected as that of the entire moderator staff, this is an affair of Civfanatics Center layout and community. There's literally no reason whatsoever why another website should have any say or input on the affairs of this website. If players on the Frontier wish to be an active part of this community, then they should be an active part of this community. This is a decision about the future of CFC NESing/IOT, and the total discussion should be here on CFC.
EDIT: Furthermore, and this is my own opinion, and not to be reflected as that of the entire moderator staff, this is an affair of Civfanatics Center layout and community. There's literally no reason whatsoever why another website should have any say or input on the affairs of this website. If players on the Frontier wish to be an active part of this community, then they should be an active part of this community. This is a decision about the future of CFC NESing/IOT, and the total discussion should be here on CFC.
Zack
99% hot gas
Another facet is that one group may support the merger while the other opposes it, which wouldn't necessarily be reflected in this single poll.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
So the people who helped build this community over the past decade, who left because administration was mistreating them, and who continue to actively participate in the hobby and community (some of which still remains on CFC) has no right to input on the future of the hobby on this forum? We are effectively segregated from the thing we built because you say so?
Except that it is a public poll, and staff can parse the votes into sub groups like current CFC NES players, Current CFC IoT players, Former CFC NES players, Left Handed Purple Haired Eurasian Domino Champions, other CFCers, etc.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
So you're also going to fix the vote in your favor?
@Luckymoose: As I said, that was my opinion. If you'd like to take a crude historical reference: if you were in the place of the new United States of America after winning the Revolution, should the British Empire allow you the right to vote in British politics? I have nothing personally against the Frontier or the people who went there, and as you say, people remain active on both. Still, this is a CFC affair, and the elements that matter should be decided by people who remain active on CFC. If you're active on both, that's your concern, but CFC business is CFC business. We're not actively saying here "Don't discuss this on the Frontier." We're just saying, "We don't care what you say on the Frontier, but CFC NES/IOT future will be decided ON CFC."
EDIT: We're not going to fix the votes, but we are going to make sure that the people voting are actually members of the communities in question and not just people who like to randomly vote on polls.
EDIT: We're not going to fix the votes, but we are going to make sure that the people voting are actually members of the communities in question and not just people who like to randomly vote on polls.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
I'm not categorically opposed to what you're doing here, but this line of thinking is a little bit...ethically questionable.
How exactly do you plan on deciding who isn't a "real" NES forum member?
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
Well, I play in NESes that are shared on both forums, even if I don't post on the CFC forum. Does my vote not count? Does my input never count because I don't subscribe to your methods of moderation and participate in the hobby from outside the CFC forum? I'm still part of this hobby, and this community, even more than most of the people posting in this thread can say they are. I don't see you coming around to talk to anyone, so how do we compare as members of this community?
What exactly is stopping them from coming over here and voting? I am unclear on why this is an issue. If they want to be a part of the community here on CFC, then come and make your opinion known here.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
Because Lefty just said he would be ignoring votes from those people?
@Thlayli: Lefty was just giving examples. As I've said, the only purpose is to make sure that trolls and poll enthusiasts aren't swaying the vote one way or another. We're certainly not going to rig things in either direction. As pointed out earlier, it would be WAY less work for moderation staff if it's a "no" vote and therefore we would hardly be incentivized to push it towards merger rather than continued separation.
@luckymoose: if you'd like to debate internet community "citizenship" in an open-minded and reasonable manner, I'd be happy to on Steam when I get home in a few hours. I'm not going to waste my time arguing my own personal beliefs here when it's not relevant to the process at hand.
@luckymoose: if you'd like to debate internet community "citizenship" in an open-minded and reasonable manner, I'd be happy to on Steam when I get home in a few hours. I'm not going to waste my time arguing my own personal beliefs here when it's not relevant to the process at hand.
Hmm. Overall, while I'm attached to the history of the NES forum, I think what we do and what IOT does is close enough to make combining the forums worthwhile. I think Thlayli makes very good points, and also, as EQ says, this is a matter of CFC layout and forum organization. They're not legislating how NESing is practiced with this particular action. I feel where Lucky is coming from, but I feel that his reaction is stronger than necessary.
As pointed out by myself earlier, the whole of the history of NESing (good and bad) will be preserved on the new combined forum. That's been my main sticking point since the issue first raised its head. A new subforum without all that both NES and IOT have accomplished over the past 13 years would hardly be worth it.
Similar threads
- Poll
