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Never Before Seen Civs - Elimination Thread

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by Xandinho, Jun 26, 2019.

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  1. Henri Christophe

    Henri Christophe Chieftain

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    What civilization in South America do you think can be better than Colombia?
     
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  2. Leucarum

    Leucarum Chieftain

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    I'd prefer to have seen more indigenous nations than post-colonial nations, so just restricted to this list Muisca would have gotten my vote over Colombia. And if we absolutely were going to get a post-colonial nation I'd find Argentina more engaging.

    Sorry if they were your top pick, but out of the ones left these were definitely my least favourite.
     
  3. EdmundIronside

    EdmundIronside Chieftain

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    Armenia - 11 (10+1) I know Georgia is already occupying their general region. However two points, firstly you don't have to play on a world map, and secondly I think Armenia are more worthy for inclusion than Georgia anyway.
    Ashanti - 23
    Bulgaria - 6
    Burma - 19
    Gauls - 5
    Goths -12
    Hebrews - 24
    Italy - 8
    Madagascar - 19
    Navajo - 25
    Swahili - 20
    Tibet - 20
    Tlingit - 7 (10-3) Let alone being in the top 10 of this list, would they even make the top 10 of the most important Native American civilizations. For example they weren't considered important enough to be included in Colonization (Arawak, Aztec, Inca, Tupi, Cherokee, Iroquois, Sioux, Apache were the chosen 8).
    Vietnam - 21
     
  4. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Chieftain

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    Armenia - 11
    Ashanti - 23
    Bulgaria - 7 (6+ 1) - At this point I'm just trying to keep as many civs surviving the Gauls. Colombia was done dirty by this poll.
    Burma - 19
    Gauls - 2 (5 - 3) - I actually almost called these out as not deserving inclusion at the beginning, given that Xadinho had to create an exception to justify them. But thankfully they won't survive much longer so I don't really care about meritocratic particularities.
    Goths -12
    Hebrews - 24
    Italy - 8
    Madagascar - 19
    Navajo - 25
    Swahili - 20
    Tibet - 20
    Tlingit - 7
    Vietnam - 21
     
  5. TahamiTsunami

    TahamiTsunami Chieftain

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    I agree that it would be tough to pick between those 3 but it is a shame that the other 2 were eliminated earlier.

    Armenia - 11
    Ashanti - 23
    Bulgaria - 7
    Burma - 19
    Gauls - 2
    Goths - 9 (12 - 3) They are very cool and interesting but so are all the civs on this list and I don't know if I'd put them above the other European options here let alone the African and new world ones. Obviously the reasons for my upvote are going to be much larger than the reasons for my downvote because there are plenty of reasons why I like who I like and its hard to really dislike anyone here on this list! I think most of us can agree with that.
    Hebrews - 24
    Italy - 8
    Madagascar - 19
    Navajo - 25
    Swahili - 20
    Tibet - 20
    Tlingit - 8 (7 + 1) I'm not familiar with that game but that list of groups in Colonization is missing numerous important, advanced, and regionally powerful groups like the Maya, Muisca, Mapuche, Cree, Comanche, etc. (not to mention the Tlingit that I'll argue for) so I don't know if I'd go by that list for who's worthy or not. I'm also not that familiar with just how large the Tlingit tribe was prior to the smallpox epidemic other than it would certainly be much larger than it is now which is about 16,000 or so but, whether they were as large as the other larger groups or not, what they accomplished, in my opinion at least, makes them one of the more notable, successful, and powerful groups and certainly not 'a minor or small group that doesn't stand out above most native tribes.' Its similar to how, even though they weren't the largest group, the Dahomey were powerful enough to strike fear into the hearts of their much larger neighbors. For examples on the Tlingits' accomplishments:
    *
    Their art: Even if you don't know who the Tlingit are, their art is fairly familiar to many people whether you regularly admire crest and totem poles or you're a big fan of the Seattle Seahawks.
    *
    Potlucks: A common thing among many modern communities that probably originated from the Tlingit and other PNW potlatchs.
    *
    Lack of agriculture: While most of the civs here needed large farms to support their populations, the Tlingit are one of the few who were able to live off of the plentiful game of the rich forests and numerous fish in their waters to support their settled populations.
    *
    Large r
    egional influence: Regardless of their size they were quite a powerful group. As far as direct areas of control go, the Alaskan panhandle is definitely not a small area that any minor group could hold onto. They had one of if not the largest territory in the PNW and its roughly the same size as the core territories of the Iroquois and some of the other nations on this list. Lets also not forget that they raided as far south as Washington state and they traded as far south as Baja California aka definitely not a small amount of land or influence. They may not have had direct control of these lands but it still speaks to their strength that most of the west coast of North America respected or feared the Tlingit.
    * Their VERY COOL UU: As cool as a large ocean-traveling canoe would be, I think their UU should be the Xaa. The elites of these raiding parties wore thick wooden armor that not only showed their artistic culture but it was also thick enough that most rifles from that time couldn't penetrate them unless they were less than 20 feet away! And if it wasn't wooden armor, it was an armor that was made with Chinese coins that were found in shipwrecks (they would flow to Alaska thanks to the currents). If that wasn't enough, these armored warriors were armed with war clubs, rifles, and even short swords forged from copper or iron! In terms of UU that aren't in the game yet, only a Dahomey Amazons UU would be just as unique and exceptional but since they aren't on this list I know for certain what UU I'd vote for! If this doesn't sound like one of the best UU to you than I don't know what does. I for one would certainly like to hear about an equally cool UU from this list!
    *
    The fight they put up against the Europeans: They were the group that gave the Russians the hardest time when it came to their expansion in the new world. As was mentioned before, they won many of their early encounters with the Russians who eventually sought more cooperation as opposed to direct control. While they couldn't fully repel the Russians, the Tlingit certainly didn't lose much and not quite as badly as most other native groups did against the European powers and were able to keep most of their core territories and customs even after the Americans arrived. They were also able to hold their prized positions in the trade routes of the PNW until about the start of the 1900s. I'm not saying they didn't have hard times or didn't lose battles, but it sounds like they had it slightly better than some other natives did. This post here describes more details.
    As stated above, I see the Tlingit as one of the more notable, successful, and powerful native groups. As much as I'd love to see the Navajo (even though I'd still somewhat prefer the Hopi or Acoma for the SW if they're open to it) and as different as they are, I have a hard time thinking of how the Navajo or some of the other large tribes are more notable or interesting than the Tlingit and I probably wouldn't use modern population sizes as a reason. Obviously this will vary based on your tastes but
    its hard to be more interesting than a short sword-wielding, wooden armor wearing, west coast dominating, artistic tribe that still holds much of its old core territory. If you ask me, the Tlingit would be AT LEAST within my top 3 Native American Civilizations and are my #1 for a new native civ! They are certainly worthy of standing with the Cree in the official games!

    Vietnam - 21
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
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  6. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    Armenia - 11
    Ashanti - 23
    Bulgaria - 7
    Burma - 19
    Gauls - 2-3=0. If we were going to have a civ from the Celtic culture the Gauls would be the best fit. Other groups like the Iceni are just too small and local whilst the Irish and Welsh are more post-Celtic successors like the Scots. Still if we're going to have more European barbarians I'd rather have the Goths.
    Goths - 9
    Hebrews - 24
    Italy - 8
    Madagascar - 19+1=20. But I'd much rather have a unique civ from an underrepresented region.
    Navajo - 25
    Swahili - 20
    Tibet - 20
    Tlingit - 8
     
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  7. Pokarnor

    Pokarnor Chieftain

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    Armenia - 11
    Ashanti - 23
    Bulgaria - 7
    Burma - 19
    Goths - 9
    Hebrews - 24
    Italy - 9 (8+1) As said before, this is a very culturally and geopolitically significant civ. Somebody else earlier said they like the Italian city states but Italy itself isn't that significant. I disagree, but moreover I think the whole point is moot. If we look at Germany we see it represents both the more modern German state(s) as well as the Holy Roman Empire. There's no reason Italy can't represent the era of maritime republics as well as the later unified era.
    Madagascar - 20
    Navajo - 22 (25-3) Little interest, and it's the top of the list right now.
    Swahili - 20
    Tibet - 20
    Tlingit - 8
     
  8. Xandinho

    Xandinho Warlord

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    Armenia - 8 (11-3) Now the list got pretty thin. I definitely think Armenia would be a good addition, but do we really need that with Georgia in the game?
    Ashanti - 23
    Bulgaria - 7
    Burma - 19
    Goths - 9
    Hebrews - 24
    Italy - 10 (9+1) This is pretty below what should be, I think the game needs some kind of Italian representation.
    Madagascar - 20
    Navajo - 22
    Swahili - 20
    Tibet - 20
    Tlingit - 8
    Vietnam - 21
     
  9. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    I am miffed to see Colombia go before Italy or Armenia but I understand some people find colonial rebels somewhat less interesting (for some reason?) Frankly it’s a shame to see South American representation vanish so early before all these European civs.

    Armenia - 8

    Ashanti - 23
    Bulgaria - 7
    Burma - 19
    Goths - 9
    Hebrews - 24 + 1 = 25 (Civ VI has a religion victory. Hebrews should be in for that reason alone. They also had some interesting history with Hezekiah’s war against Assyria where they allied with Taharqa, ruler of Egypt and Nubia, and inflicted several defeats against Assyria. Assyria ultimately won, but they failed to take Jerusalem. Many other non-prophet rulers are possible, like Salome Alexandra.)
    Italy - 10 - 3 = 7 (We already have Italian representation in the game in the Roman Empire. Italy has also had a second bite of the apple in a Civ V via Venice. We don’t need yet another duplicate European region representative when we have so many Greek leaders in Civ VI already for example. #civsowhite)
    Madagascar - 20
    Navajo - 22
    Swahili - 20
    Tibet - 20
    Tlingit - 8
    Vietnam - 21
     
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  10. Amrunril

    Amrunril Warlord

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    Armenia - 8
    Ashanti - 23
    Bulgaria - 4 (7 - 3) While it certainly has important cultural distinctions from existing civs, they simply aren't on the same scale as the cultural differences between the American and African options and the existing civs. Neither have I seen a strong a good argument about a unique mechanical dimension Bulgaria could bring to the game.
    Burma - 19
    Goths - 9
    Hebrews - 25
    Italy - 7
    Madagascar - 20
    Navajo - 22
    Swahili - 20
    Tibet - 20
    Tlingit - 9 (8 + 1) TahamiTsunami's preceding post is an excellent summary. I'll just add a couple points with regard to top 10 lists and Colonization: Whatever other issues Colonization's civ choice may have, it's a game based around the colonization of the Americas by Western European powers, so its native civ list is naturally going to be tilted in favor of the cultures that were encountered earlier in this process. And while the Tlingit would easily fall into my top 10 American choices, I don't accept the premise that American civs should be limited in this manner. There's certainly no top 10 cutoff being applied to European civs, and Europe is a smaller continent than North America, (let alone the Americas as a whole).
     
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  11. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    Armenia - 8
    Ashanti - 23
    Bulgaria - 4-3=1 I wouldn’t dare say any of the candidates in this game was unworthy of inclusion. These choices are difficult, and it’s clear people have differing priorities.
    Burma - 19
    Goths - 9
    Hebrews - 25
    Italy - 7+1=8 Renaissance, baby! Italy is as much a civilization as Spain, France, or Germany.
    Madagascar - 20
    Navajo - 22
    Swahili - 20
    Tibet - 20
    Tlingit - 9
     
  12. Naktis

    Naktis Chieftain

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    Armenia - 8
    Ashanti - 23
    Bulgaria - 1
    Burma - 19
    Goths - 9
    Hebrews - 25
    Italy - 8
    Madagascar - 21 (20+1) Unique new civ. Also another candidate for female leader Ravalona even tho she was a tyrant.
    Navajo - 22
    Swahili - 17 (20-3) sorry but if africa has room for one civ then its above madagascar choice for me, cool name tho of this civ.
    Tibet - 20
    Tlingit - 9
     
  13. Xandinho

    Xandinho Warlord

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    Vietnam has disappeared, the next poster, please include this.
     
  14. TeddyMain

    TeddyMain Chieftain

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    Armenia - 8
    Ashanti - 23
    Bulgaria - 1
    Burma - 20 (19+1) I've already made a post making a case for the Taungoo Dynasty to be represented, but Burma could also be represented by the Pagan Kingdom as well, known for the construction of Burma's famous Buddhist temples. Either way, Burma would be a great and unique Southeast Asian civ.
    Goths - 9
    Hebrews - 25
    Italy - 8
    Madagascar - 21
    Navajo - 22
    Swahili - 17
    Tibet - 20
    Tlingit - 9
    Vietnam - 18 (21-3) Its not that I have anything against Vietnam, they have a strong case going for them and I would actually like to see them. Its just that I'm more of a fan of Burma being the next SEA representative.
     
  15. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Warlord

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    Armenia - 8
    Ashanti - 23
    Bulgaria - 1-3= Eliminated. European spots are limited and would have liked even Romania over them.
    Burma - 20
    Goths - 9
    Hebrews - 25
    Italy - 8=1=9 It's still too low. I don't care if it's another European one in the game. I would have taken it over many others. Also Roman Empire =/= Italy.
    Madagascar - 21
    Navajo - 22
    Swahili - 17
    Tibet - 20
    Tlingit - 9
    Vietnam - 18
     
  16. Leucarum

    Leucarum Chieftain

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    Armenia - 8
    Ashanti - 24 = 23+1 - 100% would play
    Burma - 20
    Goths - 9
    Hebrews - 25
    Italy - 6 = 9-3 . The Italian city states would be better than Italy as a whole in my opinion. I'd be really excited for Venice or Tuscany for example. Putting Italy in would preclude them so it's a no for me.
    Madagascar - 21
    Navajo - 22
    Swahili - 17
    Tibet - 20
    Tlingit - 9
    Vietnam - 18
     
  17. Cave Johnson

    Cave Johnson Chieftain

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    Armenia - 5 (8-3) I made my point, Georgia and this would be overkill.
    Ashanti - 24
    Burma - 20
    Goths - 9
    Hebrews - 25
    Italy - 6
    Madagascar - 21
    Navajo - 23 (22+1) Still my favorite on this list, best option for North America imo.
    Swahili - 17
    Tibet - 20
    Tlingit - 9
    Vietnam - 18
     
  18. 679x

    679x Chieftain

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    Armenia - 5
    Ashanti - 25 (24+1) A prime pick from West Africa, which really oughta have another civ outside of Mali.
    Burma - 20
    Goths - 6 (9-3) The only European civs I want to see are Portugal and Italy, because they have enough of their own achievements to warrant inclusion even when the game is already so heavily filled with European civs. If we had, like, 70 civs in the game or some particularly large number (which I wouldn't be opposed to!) then I think we could squeeze in the Goths, but as it stands, I'll be downvoting them.
    Hebrews - 25
    Italy - 6
    Madagascar - 21
    Navajo - 23
    Swahili - 17
    Tibet - 20
    Tlingit - 9
    Vietnam - 18
     
  19. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Chieftain

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    Armenia - 5
    Ashanti - 22 (25 - 3) - I don't see much of a unique angle for these guys, frankly. Between Ashanti, Oyo, and Benin they all kind of blend together and I'm not aware of anything exceptional they did besides become a marginal military power. I would rather have the Swahili given how influential they were to Indian Ocean trading for centuries. And even for the Bight of Benin I think I would rather have the Oyo empire over the Ashanti, given that it lasted longer and could snag some sweet Yoruba representation.
    Burma - 20
    Goths - 7 (6 + 1) - Throwing Theoderic a bone. Just one.
    Hebrews - 25
    Italy - 6
    Madagascar - 21
    Navajo - 23
    Swahili - 17
    Tibet - 20
    Tlingit - 9
    Vietnam - 18
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
  20. conorbebe

    conorbebe Chieftain

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    Armenia - 5 - 3 = 2 Debatably a better choice than Georgia depending on who you ask, but I do not believe both are distinct enough to deserve taking up two spots.
    Ashanti - 22
    Burma - 20
    Goths - 7
    Hebrews - 25
    Italy - 6 + 1 = 7 A major player in Europe since the renaissance, having influence across the globe. Plenty of interesting leader choices. Rome alone simply does not cut it.
    Madagascar - 21
    Navajo - 23
    Swahili - 17
    Tibet - 20
    Tlingit - 9
    Vietnam - 18
     
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