TahamiTsunami
Prince
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2017
- Messages
- 471
I agree that it would be tough to pick between those 3 but it is a shame that the other 2 were eliminated earlier.
Armenia - 11
Ashanti - 23
Bulgaria - 7
Burma - 19
Gauls - 2
Goths - 9 (12 - 3) They are very cool and interesting but so are all the civs on this list and I don't know if I'd put them above the other European options here let alone the African and new world ones. Obviously the reasons for my upvote are going to be much larger than the reasons for my downvote because there are plenty of reasons why I like who I like and its hard to really dislike anyone here on this list! I think most of us can agree with that.
Hebrews - 24
Italy - 8
Madagascar - 19
Navajo - 25
Swahili - 20
Tibet - 20
Tlingit - 8 (7 + 1) I'm not familiar with that game but that list of groups in Colonization is missing numerous important, advanced, and regionally powerful groups like the Maya, Muisca, Mapuche, Cree, Comanche, etc. (not to mention the Tlingit that I'll argue for) so I don't know if I'd go by that list for who's worthy or not. I'm also not that familiar with just how large the Tlingit tribe was prior to the smallpox epidemic other than it would certainly be much larger than it is now which is about 16,000 or so but, whether they were as large as the other larger groups or not, what they accomplished, in my opinion at least, makes them one of the more notable, successful, and powerful groups and certainly not 'a minor or small group that doesn't stand out above most native tribes.' Its similar to how, even though they weren't the largest group, the Dahomey were powerful enough to strike fear into the hearts of their much larger neighbors. For examples on the Tlingits' accomplishments:
* Their art: Even if you don't know who the Tlingit are, their art is fairly familiar to many people whether you regularly admire crest and totem poles or you're a big fan of the Seattle Seahawks.
* Potlucks: A common thing among many modern communities that probably originated from the Tlingit and other PNW potlatchs.
* Lack of agriculture: While most of the civs here needed large farms to support their populations, the Tlingit are one of the few who were able to live off of the plentiful game of the rich forests and numerous fish in their waters to support their settled populations.
* Large regional influence: Regardless of their size they were quite a powerful group. As far as direct areas of control go, the Alaskan panhandle is definitely not a small area that any minor group could hold onto. They had one of if not the largest territory in the PNW and its roughly the same size as the core territories of the Iroquois and some of the other nations on this list. Lets also not forget that they raided as far south as Washington state and they traded as far south as Baja California aka definitely not a small amount of land or influence. They may not have had direct control of these lands but it still speaks to their strength that most of the west coast of North America respected or feared the Tlingit.
* Their VERY COOL UU: As cool as a large ocean-traveling canoe would be, I think their UU should be the Xaa. The elites of these raiding parties wore thick wooden armor that not only showed their artistic culture but it was also thick enough that most rifles from that time couldn't penetrate them unless they were less than 20 feet away! And if it wasn't wooden armor, it was an armor that was made with Chinese coins that were found in shipwrecks (they would flow to Alaska thanks to the currents). If that wasn't enough, these armored warriors were armed with war clubs, rifles, and even short swords forged from copper or iron! In terms of UU that aren't in the game yet, only a Dahomey Amazons UU would be just as unique and exceptional but since they aren't on this list I know for certain what UU I'd vote for! If this doesn't sound like one of the best UU to you than I don't know what does. I for one would certainly like to hear about an equally cool UU from this list!
* The fight they put up against the Europeans: They were the group that gave the Russians the hardest time when it came to their expansion in the new world. As was mentioned before, they won many of their early encounters with the Russians who eventually sought more cooperation as opposed to direct control. While they couldn't fully repel the Russians, the Tlingit certainly didn't lose much and not quite as badly as most other native groups did against the European powers and were able to keep most of their core territories and customs even after the Americans arrived. They were also able to hold their prized positions in the trade routes of the PNW until about the start of the 1900s. I'm not saying they didn't have hard times or didn't lose battles, but it sounds like they had it slightly better than some other natives did. This post here describes more details.
As stated above, I see the Tlingit as one of the more notable, successful, and powerful native groups. As much as I'd love to see the Navajo (even though I'd still somewhat prefer the Hopi or Acoma for the SW if they're open to it) and as different as they are, I have a hard time thinking of how the Navajo or some of the other large tribes are more notable or interesting than the Tlingit and I probably wouldn't use modern population sizes as a reason. Obviously this will vary based on your tastes but its hard to be more interesting than a short sword-wielding, wooden armor wearing, west coast dominating, artistic tribe that still holds much of its old core territory. If you ask me, the Tlingit would be AT LEAST within my top 3 Native American Civilizations and are my #1 for a new native civ! They are certainly worthy of standing with the Cree in the official games!
Vietnam - 21
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