New Civ Game Guide: Ming China

[Fummy]

Do you think you can place a Ming great wall as part of an existing Han great wall? or are they counted differently. It says they can only be placed next to existing walls (ignoring the first I guess).

Also their bonus for fortification buildings includes the wall which is an improvement right?

 

[Zaarin]

Do you think you can place a Ming great wall as part of an existing Han great wall? or are they counted differently. It says they can only be placed next to existing walls (ignoring the first I guess).

It says they have to be placed in a line, so no forking the wall. I would assume that the Han and Ming walls can connect, which probably explains why they share graphics for easy connection.

Also their bonus for fortification buildings includes the wall which is an improvement right?

Yes, the idea is to put Great Wall pieces together to rake in the gold. This would apply to the Han Great Wall, which per Sar is also a fortification.

 

[Black Gate]

It does seem a little samey and that the Han are the more interesting of the two. I can only hope that the Qing (and maybe Tang in DLC) can take China in a different direction. But strong to be sure.

 

[notNamed]

I was expecting a Crouching Tiger, since one featured in the original trailer.

Eh, these guys were also seen in the OG trailer and being such an outlier design it was fairly clear they'd be the unique unit. Unique units in general chase novelty more than practicality, as seen with the Hwacha and similar. An impractical, not particularly effective design that was quickly replaced with bog-standard organ guns and cannons. However, it is visually striking and recognisable, hence a good choice for the "other" to the European "normal".

Also surprised there’s no mention of Ming maritime trade - not even a tradition. That’s such a defining characteristic of this Dynasty.

Ming is characterised by deleting maritime trade if anything. The originators of the famous sakoku policies adopted by Edo, Joseon (the Hermit Kingdom and all, tho I don't remember when and why) and Nguyen (starting with Minh Mang). Designate a few ports with explicit schedules and limits of ships, make travel into the interior illegal, flag anyone who leaves the country as a criminal marked for execution.

The Treasure Ship expedition was a pet project of a single emperor and stopped because no one was in favor of it. The same as his project of joining Annam back into the fold.


As far as Chinese states go, Song is the one traditionally known for large amounts of trade, maritime included.
Northern Song flooded Japan with coins, allowing them to jump away from a rice and silk based economy, for instance.

Maybe they didn't think the existing ones did that good of a job.

At the time of Ming the Great Wall was but a cultural memory. One of the things they came up with to prevent Genghis 2.0 from happening.
Since they read about Han dynasty building a great wall to deter the Xiongnu and it working out well for them, they replicated the idea to keep the Mongols at bay.
Though they didn't put all the eggs in that one basket. They also established diplomatic missions which kept monitoring the steppes and the various tribes and alliances with them. Whenever they saw a potential strongman appearing (not an unheard of thing since Genghisid lineage and legacy was still pretty strong in the cultures of the steppe) they sided with his enemies and kept the Mongols close to home as non-threatening raiders rather than a large, unified and organised force.

It is a nice nod to the fact Ming are the real builders of the Great Wall as UNESCO and tourists understand it. Though it makes the decision to use the Ming wall for Han make sting a little bit more in retrospect.

 

[bite]

I wonder if they didn't add any Treasure fleet stuff in there because they might drop Zheng He as a new leader and those bonuses will go to him?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I wonder if they didn't add any Treasure fleet stuff in there because they might drop Zheng He as a new leader and those bonuses will go to him?

It has to be an ability that is useful the whole game.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I wonder if they didn't add any Treasure fleet stuff in there because they might drop Zheng He as a new leader and those bonuses will go to him?

That would be extremely cool.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

And this 'Xunleichong' (迅雷銃) is this unit.

^ A Handgunner. Actually this unit should show up at Metal Castings. but i'm not sure if it replaces archers line or infantry line, yet my expectations is that ranged, and infantry class will converge when gunpowder tech is researched, and musketeer will be the said converged unit.

 

[bite]

It has to be an ability that is useful the whole game.

It may be a naval ability that works all game but helps a lot here, but that is just me musing

 

[AriochIV]

And this 'Xunleichong' (迅雷銃) is this unit.
View attachment 709239
^ A Handgunner. Actually this unit should show up at Metal Castings. but i'm not sure if it replaces archers line or infantry line, yet my expectations is that ranged, and infantry class will converge when gunpowder tech is researched, and musketeer will be the said converged unit.

I'm not so sure. The above unit looks like conventional muskets, whereas the xun lei chong is supposed to be a spear with gun barrels wrapped around it.

The video short for Ming shows this unit:

I'm not sure this is the unit either, but at least it has spears.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ It might be late developments. or it might even be Han era heavy infantry! better look at opponents.
But if Xunleichong would last an entire Age with each upgrades changed its graphics. then it might be possible, since '銃' was originally means 'Spear, or Pike' before it became 'gun'.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

Also surprised there’s no mention of Ming maritime trade - not even a tradition. That’s such a defining characteristic of this Dynasty.

Not going to go too much more into treasure fleets here, as I don’t want to be the mechanics guy, but a reminder that Zheng He’s fleet was very much a Yongle endeavor! The rest of Ming was much more insular! So here we have a real split between an individual’s vision and the baseline for the dynasty.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

The interesting thing about those units is that some have spears and shields while others are holding something long with two hands. My first impression was that they are pikes, but maybe they are fire lances.

 

[8housesofelixir]

The re-use of the Great Wall is a massive disappointment, to say the least, especially when the Han Great Wall already used the visuals of the IRL Ming Great Wall (the actual Han Great Walls looked very different), and the visual differentiation is nearly non-existent.

Given that the current Ming design is science-focused, it is such a wasted opportunity not to include the Shuyuan or Gunpowder Workshops as Ming UB. In addition, the only mention of the gunpowder aspect is a weapon with very limited use, if not non-existent. We saw the same issue with the "Chu Ko Nu," as the design decided to include a fancy exotic weapon that was taken to be representative of Chinese scientific advancement rather than something more widely used and attested.

Ming not having a unique great person also made the fact that Han has Wang Yangming - a Ming scholar - as a great person more ridiculous.



On the other hand, I am still glad that the devs did not cave in to the popular imagination of the Treasure Fleets to be part of the Ming toolbox. Zheng He's fleet is a unique campaign that only happened once in the entirety of Ming history, and it was more of an imperialist endeavor rather than an economic masterstroke (the Fleets were canceled after Yongle's reign precisely because they were such a money sink that Ming, the wealthiest empire on the planet at the time, could not afford it). Even if the developers decided to portray the Treasure Fleets, it would be better to portray them as unique to a Yongle or Zheng He leader, rather than tied to the Ming dynasty as a whole.

 

[notNamed]

And this 'Xunleichong' (迅雷銃) is this unit.
View attachment 709239
^ A Handgunner. Actually this unit should show up at Metal Castings. but i'm not sure if it replaces archers line or infantry line, yet my expectations is that ranged, and infantry class will converge when gunpowder tech is researched, and musketeer will be the said converged unit.

Nah, you have the correct scene but wrong guys.
It's these folks (fairly sure you could get a higher quality shot elsewhere, but it's good enough to identify them):

 

[AriochIV]

Nah, you have the correct scene but wrong guys.
It's these folks (fairly sure you could get a higher quality shot elsewhere, but it's good enough to identify them):
View attachment 709248

Ah, I guess that's it in the left hand. They've even got the little axes.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Ming is characterised by deleting maritime trade if anything. The originators of the famous sakoku policies adopted by Edo, Joseon (the Hermit Kingdom and all, tho I don't remember when and why) and Nguyen (starting with Minh Mang). Designate a few ports with explicit schedules and limits of ships, make travel into the interior illegal, flag anyone who leaves the country as a criminal marked for execution.

Not going to go too much more into treasure fleets here, as I don’t want to be the mechanics guy, but a reminder that Zheng He’s fleet was very much a Yongle endeavor! The rest of Ming was much more insular! So here we have a real split between an individual’s vision and the baseline for the dynasty.

I'll just put my historian hat on and add that the actual Ming trade history was much more complex than "insular."

Of course, Zheng He's endeavor was a unique one-time thing. However, the Ming was very much not insular - it was probably the most "open" Imperial Chinese dynasty, albeit reaching this openness very passively.

The Naval Trade Ban, for instance, was hardly implemented in Ming times, and the smuggling business began to boom right after the Treasure Fleets were canceled. This is because the early Ming currency was pepper, and the late Ming currency was silver, both of which needed to be imported (pepper from SAE, silver from Japan). The central govt tried to fight the smugglers to no avail, and in 1509, the southern Trade Ban was lifted in Guangzhou entirely. The powerful smugglers-turned-pirates even fought wars with the Ming on the eastern coast (the famous Wokou), eventually forcing the Ming to lift the eastern Trade Ban in 1567.

On the northern front, the Ming initiated a similar Trade Ban against the Mongols; the Mongols responded with two massive invasions - the Tumu Crisis in 1449 and the Altan Khan Wars in 1550-1570 - and nearly destroyed the active Ming military in both (even captured the Ming emperor in the first one). In 1571, the Ming govt finally came to terms with the Mongols and lifted the Ban, and the cross-border trade flourished until the end of Ming. Like the Naval Trade Ban, this Mongol trade ban was not strictly implemented, with people on the borders constantly smuggling trade goods into Mongols or escaping into Mongols. The famous Chinese merchant bloc, the Jin Merchants, developed from those illegal trades (and later legal trades) with the Mongols. Even the Ming officials who pushed for lifting the Ban in 1570-1571 came from the Jin Merchant backgrounds.

After both Bans were gone in the 1560s-70s, Ming entered a period of heavy involvement in early globalization. SAE pepper and Japanese silver flooded the Chinese market; Ming merchants were active in SAE and set up small colonies here and there; Ming officials began to convert to Christianity, learning Renaissance discoveries, adopting Western calendars, and buying Portuguese cannons to fight the Manchus. There is a reason why an Italian Jesuit, Matteo Ricci, could hold an office in the Ming court (1601-1610) and make friends with Ming officials around him.


In short, I would argue that a Ming design centered around the trade actually has a sound historical basis. Just that the basis is not about the state-sponsored Treasure Fleets, but the city-dwellers and the merchant class who drove the private trades and successfully pushed the dynasty to be more trade-friendly.

 

[gdr_willter]

In short, I would argue that a Ming design centered around the trade actually has a sound historical basis. Just that the basis is not about the state-sponsored Treasure Fleets, but the city-dwellers and the merchant class who drove the private trades and successfully pushed the dynasty to be more trade-friendly.

Unique merchant Mandarin can be sort of this? I'm considering the tribute-bounty trade and the private trades of envoys.

 

[gdr_willter]

I personally prefer Tang or Song for the Exploration China. I'll rather put Ming into Modern Age and let them compete against Qing(or Later Jin). I understand it can be weird that setting the 14c ~ 17c empire as Modern civ, but I think they deserve it when if Qing is Modern civ either.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Unique merchant Mandarin can be sort of this? I'm considering the tribute-bounty trade and the private trades of envoys.

Tributary Trade was strictly state-sanctioned and could not be considered "private."

For instance, the foreign tributary delegation should file a report beforehand to the Ming government, listing their numbers and goods, then wait for the Ming side to approve and set up a price for the goods; if the Ming refused to trade, or decided to pay much less for the goods, the envoys cannot reject the deal normally. The first Mongol invasion I mentioned above was triggered by the Ming decision to strike down the horse payment to 1/5 of the original.

Most importantly, the Tributary Trades were more about the Suzerain-Tributary relationship than the trade. During such trades, Ming usually bought the tributary goods much higher than the market price - to show that they were "benevolent" suzerains - and sometimes, they just straightly handed out gold and silver to the delegations. For Ming officials, most of the Tributary Trades were too costly and only had marginal efforts for diplomacy. This is also why the Treasure Fleets were canceled after the Yongle; it was such a money sink that even Ming (then perhaps the richest country in the world) could not afford. Overall, we cannot really say these were market-oriented trades, which is why they require the modifier "tributary."