New NESes, ideas, development, etc
- Thread starter das
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North King
blech
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Tones can be annoying, but maybe it's a reflection of my music background that I don't find them odd at all.
I agree. I think the Chinese writing system is stupidly complex though.
If I were ever going to create a language, I'd have an alphabet, get rid of tones because I think that's a bad idea (and anywayhow are you going to sing songs with tones, that's difficult!) but use Chinese grammar. I mean, seriously, conjugation is pretty tricky for foreign speakers. Let's use time phrases instead! Then, when you learn how to relate things to each other in time, you can also put together sentences based on time! None of this "If <pluperfect> <past conditional>" memorization!
Thanks to my background, tones are as easy as pie though. It's just that I can objectively see that they are kind of dumb.
North King
blech
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Yes, a thousand times yes. Even Chinese children learn faster with pinyin than with characters...
I always did wonder if that was why Chinese music was so different from Western. There seems to be a significant lack of a vocal tradition, which bothers me...
T_F
Reynardine the Great
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Personally, I enjoy making non-alphabets. (Practically every script I've ever made has been an abjad, even if none of their languages have been remotely Semitic.) And I think Chinese's system works for it, since Chinese has a ridiculous number of homophones and near-homophones. (It seems to work better in Japanese though, since you can at least supply the reading for a character easily. But that's what Bopomofo's for.)
And I've never really figured out how anyone can sing intelligibly in Chinese, but apparently it's easily possible.
And I've never really figured out how anyone can sing intelligibly in Chinese, but apparently it's easily possible.
North King
blech
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The homophones are exaggerated; one can figure it out from context easily enough. The problem is more the sheer number of characters than anything else.
Apparently you wobble the tones for singing.
Apparently you wobble the tones for singing.
flyingchicken
Deity
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I suppose so, unless your empire happened to be all title and no empire.
The Strategos
Thanatos
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Introduction:
The most fundamental difference between various NESers is the matter of what makes a NES fun. This concept of fun determines in large part how NESes are constructed and how players conduct themselves in NESes. Yet despite its importance, to this point there hasnt been an adequate discussion over what makes NESes fun for the people playing in them. This is an attempt to remedy that state. It is not revolutionary in the sense that most people will find that theyve already had a vague or explicit idea of what they considered fun. However, by clarifying the issues, it allows for the fundamental differences between various NESers to be clearly seen, without the peripheral arguments that tend to obstruct issues.
The Basic Framework:
For players, it is my contention that two main concerns dominate their thinking: whether they derive the most fun from the social or individual aspects of NESing; and whether they derive the most fun from achieving objective or subjective goals.
Individual play is one where the player's actions and interest is primarily tied up with individual actions divorced from how other players' actions. This interest manifests itself primarily in a primary interest in the players own nation, such as a preoccupation with its internal politics or development of culture. Social play is one where the player's actions and interest is primarily tied into the actions of other players. Whereas the player who enjoys the individual aspect more could happily play in a NES where the entirety of the update was about their own nation, the social player would find that NES limited and boring.
Objective goals are goals that can be objectively measured in whether they have been reached, for example "defeat player B" or "have the biggest army." Subjective goals, meanwhile, are goals which focus more on internal states, and thus an outsider cannot necessarily determine when the goal has been reached. Examples of subjective goals are "act in a realistic manner" or "develop an interesting culture."
Individual-Subjective: Creator
Individual-Objective: Goal-Oriented
Social-Subjective: Immersionist
Social-Objective: Gamer
While few players fit perfectly in these idealized categories, it is still important for players to recognize their general playing style. Many of the styles will face frustration with other playing styles, for example an immersionist might feel frustrated with the creator and gamer for unrealistic actions, while the gamer and creator feel constrained by the immersionists rigid framework. By identifying their leanings, the player can make informed decisions about whether a particular NES encourages, discourages, or is neutral about their preferred playing style. For example, many creators find that a "fresh start" NES encourages their playing style while some kinds of historical or alternative historical NESes discourage it. An identification of a playing style will also help the player devise orders and shape how they play in a NES. If a player decides that they are a Gamer, they will devise orders and take actions which maximize their nations potential. In contrast, a creator might spend most of their orders explaining and elaborating on their creation.
Creator:
The creator tends towards playing in an individualistic manner in order to achieve their subjective goals. The player seeks to create and shape their vessel to their own liking. Unlike the Immersionist, the player does not seek to act in a manner others would deem realistic, instead they act in a manner which they feel best expresses their creativity.
Creators tend to enjoy fresh starts, because it gives them the maximum freedom to create and shape a nation and a culture compared to historical and alt-historical NESes where the player starts with a pre-determined culture/nation. Creators also tend towards enjoying NESes with fewer rules and less moderator power. This is because they view rules and moderator powers as limiting their freedom in creating and shaping their own country/culture. Creators tend to emphasize story writing over order writing as stories give them more opportunity to ensure their nation/culture is shaped in the way they desired without outside interference. Because of this, they tend to believe that anything written in a story, no matter its content, should be considered canonical.
Goal-Orientated:
The goal-orientated player is one who primarily focuses on objective goals in a way that tends to be individualistic. The player sets various goals to achieve during the game. Unlike the Gamer, the Goal-Orientated player does not primarily see other players as their main competition, though their goals may temporarily place them in conflict with other players. Instead, they seek to compete against themselves, to see whether they can achieve their goals.
Goal-Orientated players tend towards enjoying playing smaller or weaker countries for the challenge. They may equally enjoy a variety of NES settings. Goal-orientated people tend to value internal consistency and some kind of realism as they provide a base line of knowledge needed by the player in order to determine how to achieve their goals. They tend to enjoy their plans being opposed, usually by the moderator though sometimes by other players, as the challenge of fulfilling a goal while opposed is the majority of the fun for the player.
Immersionist:
The immersionist player focuses primarily on the social aspect to meet subjective goals. To do this, the player seeks to immerse themselves in the game world of the NES with the goal of roleplaying their chosen vessels in a way that would be realistic within the setting of the game world. These players tend towards emphasizing actions which flesh out the game world and tend to act in a manner consistent with the personality of those they control.
The immersionist tends to enjoy playing in NESes with updates that cover a short period of time, as they tend to enjoy playing as individuals within the NES world rather than an omnipotent player/controller of the nation. With a shorter time frame, they are more able to flesh out the individuality and personality of the individual they control, rather than being forced to continually switch perspectives because of an update temporal length. Because of this preference for shorter time period updates, the immersionist tends to enjoy historical or alt-historical NESes more than fresh starts. The immersionist tends to enjoy self-consistent worlds, though they may disagree on the best method to achieve these self-consistent worlds, whether by better rules, a strong moderator, or by democratic majority of players who all share the same goal. The immersionist tends to put emphasis on flavor details that do not necessarily contribute to a visible change in the NES itself, and thus tends to promote stories and add fluff to their orders. Because they tend towards wanting to feel as if they are actually in an alternate world, they enjoy it when other players and the update incorporate fluff. The behavior of other players is extremely important to the immersionist as other players behaviors either contribute or diminish their immersion into the world of the NES, and thus their overall enjoyment.
Gamer:
The gamer is a player who plays NESes in a social manner with objective goals. The player views the NES as a competitive exercise between themselves and other players. The player thus emphasizes actions which allow them to show their competitive superiority over other players, by defeating them in wars, creating a larger nation, or amassing the best stats in certain categories.
The gamer tends to enjoy all types of NESes, as long as they can compete with other players. Depending on their personality, they may either prefer stronger countries, because it gives them an advantage over other players, or weaker countries, because it provides more of a challenge, and thus more satisfaction when they defeat other players. The gamer tends to like a self-consistent world and dislike randomness, as they want their skill to be the determining factor of their success or failure. Gamers may tend towards finding loopholes or otherwise exploiting the rules as this showcases their skill and understanding of the game. They tend to be more concerned with results over how they achieve the results, and thus are uninterested in fluff and prefer updates to show just the facts. They tend towards searching for the ideal solution to every problem, even if that solution would not have occurred in the setting of the NES. Because of this, gamers often tend towards pushing forward the evolution of technology and ideas in a NES.
Appendix A: What About ?
This survey of what makes NESing fun for various people has left out certain categories that many people would consider fundamental. This section briefly examines these proposed categories and explains why they were left out. This section may expand in the future.
The Realist: This proposed category would see some players as having fun the more the NES corresponded to real life reality. This category is rejected because it seems that no one has realism as their main objective in a NES, but instead advocate realism in order to meet some other objective. For example, people may advocate realism in order to have a self-consistent world that they can immerse themselves in. In addition, while in other categories one can see the net benefit a person would gain (the enjoyment of creating something new, the enjoyment of achieving your goals, the enjoyment of being someone else, the enjoyment of proving yourself superior to others), it is unclear what benefit a person who advocated realism for realism sake would gain.
The Story-teller: If you really want to argue this point, I wont greatly oppose you. However, it seems to be the class story-teller is really a combination of Immersionist and Creator categories, as for the most part story-telling can be either described as creating something new (Creator category) or creating within a framework (Immersionist category). Because story-telling was so vague on its goals, I decided to break it up into smaller parts whose goals are more concrete.
The most fundamental difference between various NESers is the matter of what makes a NES fun. This concept of fun determines in large part how NESes are constructed and how players conduct themselves in NESes. Yet despite its importance, to this point there hasnt been an adequate discussion over what makes NESes fun for the people playing in them. This is an attempt to remedy that state. It is not revolutionary in the sense that most people will find that theyve already had a vague or explicit idea of what they considered fun. However, by clarifying the issues, it allows for the fundamental differences between various NESers to be clearly seen, without the peripheral arguments that tend to obstruct issues.
The Basic Framework:
For players, it is my contention that two main concerns dominate their thinking: whether they derive the most fun from the social or individual aspects of NESing; and whether they derive the most fun from achieving objective or subjective goals.
Individual play is one where the player's actions and interest is primarily tied up with individual actions divorced from how other players' actions. This interest manifests itself primarily in a primary interest in the players own nation, such as a preoccupation with its internal politics or development of culture. Social play is one where the player's actions and interest is primarily tied into the actions of other players. Whereas the player who enjoys the individual aspect more could happily play in a NES where the entirety of the update was about their own nation, the social player would find that NES limited and boring.
Objective goals are goals that can be objectively measured in whether they have been reached, for example "defeat player B" or "have the biggest army." Subjective goals, meanwhile, are goals which focus more on internal states, and thus an outsider cannot necessarily determine when the goal has been reached. Examples of subjective goals are "act in a realistic manner" or "develop an interesting culture."
Individual-Subjective: Creator
Individual-Objective: Goal-Oriented
Social-Subjective: Immersionist
Social-Objective: Gamer
While few players fit perfectly in these idealized categories, it is still important for players to recognize their general playing style. Many of the styles will face frustration with other playing styles, for example an immersionist might feel frustrated with the creator and gamer for unrealistic actions, while the gamer and creator feel constrained by the immersionists rigid framework. By identifying their leanings, the player can make informed decisions about whether a particular NES encourages, discourages, or is neutral about their preferred playing style. For example, many creators find that a "fresh start" NES encourages their playing style while some kinds of historical or alternative historical NESes discourage it. An identification of a playing style will also help the player devise orders and shape how they play in a NES. If a player decides that they are a Gamer, they will devise orders and take actions which maximize their nations potential. In contrast, a creator might spend most of their orders explaining and elaborating on their creation.
Creator:
The creator tends towards playing in an individualistic manner in order to achieve their subjective goals. The player seeks to create and shape their vessel to their own liking. Unlike the Immersionist, the player does not seek to act in a manner others would deem realistic, instead they act in a manner which they feel best expresses their creativity.
Creators tend to enjoy fresh starts, because it gives them the maximum freedom to create and shape a nation and a culture compared to historical and alt-historical NESes where the player starts with a pre-determined culture/nation. Creators also tend towards enjoying NESes with fewer rules and less moderator power. This is because they view rules and moderator powers as limiting their freedom in creating and shaping their own country/culture. Creators tend to emphasize story writing over order writing as stories give them more opportunity to ensure their nation/culture is shaped in the way they desired without outside interference. Because of this, they tend to believe that anything written in a story, no matter its content, should be considered canonical.
Goal-Orientated:
The goal-orientated player is one who primarily focuses on objective goals in a way that tends to be individualistic. The player sets various goals to achieve during the game. Unlike the Gamer, the Goal-Orientated player does not primarily see other players as their main competition, though their goals may temporarily place them in conflict with other players. Instead, they seek to compete against themselves, to see whether they can achieve their goals.
Goal-Orientated players tend towards enjoying playing smaller or weaker countries for the challenge. They may equally enjoy a variety of NES settings. Goal-orientated people tend to value internal consistency and some kind of realism as they provide a base line of knowledge needed by the player in order to determine how to achieve their goals. They tend to enjoy their plans being opposed, usually by the moderator though sometimes by other players, as the challenge of fulfilling a goal while opposed is the majority of the fun for the player.
Immersionist:
The immersionist player focuses primarily on the social aspect to meet subjective goals. To do this, the player seeks to immerse themselves in the game world of the NES with the goal of roleplaying their chosen vessels in a way that would be realistic within the setting of the game world. These players tend towards emphasizing actions which flesh out the game world and tend to act in a manner consistent with the personality of those they control.
The immersionist tends to enjoy playing in NESes with updates that cover a short period of time, as they tend to enjoy playing as individuals within the NES world rather than an omnipotent player/controller of the nation. With a shorter time frame, they are more able to flesh out the individuality and personality of the individual they control, rather than being forced to continually switch perspectives because of an update temporal length. Because of this preference for shorter time period updates, the immersionist tends to enjoy historical or alt-historical NESes more than fresh starts. The immersionist tends to enjoy self-consistent worlds, though they may disagree on the best method to achieve these self-consistent worlds, whether by better rules, a strong moderator, or by democratic majority of players who all share the same goal. The immersionist tends to put emphasis on flavor details that do not necessarily contribute to a visible change in the NES itself, and thus tends to promote stories and add fluff to their orders. Because they tend towards wanting to feel as if they are actually in an alternate world, they enjoy it when other players and the update incorporate fluff. The behavior of other players is extremely important to the immersionist as other players behaviors either contribute or diminish their immersion into the world of the NES, and thus their overall enjoyment.
Gamer:
The gamer is a player who plays NESes in a social manner with objective goals. The player views the NES as a competitive exercise between themselves and other players. The player thus emphasizes actions which allow them to show their competitive superiority over other players, by defeating them in wars, creating a larger nation, or amassing the best stats in certain categories.
The gamer tends to enjoy all types of NESes, as long as they can compete with other players. Depending on their personality, they may either prefer stronger countries, because it gives them an advantage over other players, or weaker countries, because it provides more of a challenge, and thus more satisfaction when they defeat other players. The gamer tends to like a self-consistent world and dislike randomness, as they want their skill to be the determining factor of their success or failure. Gamers may tend towards finding loopholes or otherwise exploiting the rules as this showcases their skill and understanding of the game. They tend to be more concerned with results over how they achieve the results, and thus are uninterested in fluff and prefer updates to show just the facts. They tend towards searching for the ideal solution to every problem, even if that solution would not have occurred in the setting of the NES. Because of this, gamers often tend towards pushing forward the evolution of technology and ideas in a NES.
Appendix A: What About ?
This survey of what makes NESing fun for various people has left out certain categories that many people would consider fundamental. This section briefly examines these proposed categories and explains why they were left out. This section may expand in the future.
The Realist: This proposed category would see some players as having fun the more the NES corresponded to real life reality. This category is rejected because it seems that no one has realism as their main objective in a NES, but instead advocate realism in order to meet some other objective. For example, people may advocate realism in order to have a self-consistent world that they can immerse themselves in. In addition, while in other categories one can see the net benefit a person would gain (the enjoyment of creating something new, the enjoyment of achieving your goals, the enjoyment of being someone else, the enjoyment of proving yourself superior to others), it is unclear what benefit a person who advocated realism for realism sake would gain.
The Story-teller: If you really want to argue this point, I wont greatly oppose you. However, it seems to be the class story-teller is really a combination of Immersionist and Creator categories, as for the most part story-telling can be either described as creating something new (Creator category) or creating within a framework (Immersionist category). Because story-telling was so vague on its goals, I decided to break it up into smaller parts whose goals are more concrete.
Within your categories, I guess I am mostly a goal-oriented player.
das
Regeneration In Process
More Immersionist than anything else, here.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
I've definitely floated in more of an Immersionist direction in the past year...though I can have Creator tendencies at times.
EDIT: I might add that this is an excellent analysis of player motivations.
EDIT: I might add that this is an excellent analysis of player motivations.
So how does one design a NES to accommodate as many of these motivations as possible? What are the play elements that feed the "I want to play!" enthusiam for each?
For example, for goal-oriented players, it might be rules that allow (and reward) for smart use of history and geography.
For example, for goal-oriented players, it might be rules that allow (and reward) for smart use of history and geography.
Chandrasekhar
Determined
I like this concept. If Storyist-Arcader-Boardgamer-Simulationist describes moderator styles, then this one describes player styles. I don't think there's a direct correspondence between the two classifications, though. I could see all 16 combinations of moderator style and player prefernce working together.
I'm not sure what my own preference as a player would be, though. I'm leaning towards immersionist, but I suppose I should play more NESes to be sure.
I'm not sure what my own preference as a player would be, though. I'm leaning towards immersionist, but I suppose I should play more NESes to be sure.
Terrance888
Discord Reigns
Neverwonagame is a Dedicated Gamer...
I am a Gamer/Immersionist... I like stories but I play against others often.
I am a Gamer/Immersionist... I like stories but I play against others often.
Daftpanzer
canonically ambiguous
I'd like to add my approval of this concept.
I'd place myself as an immersionist, but I don't think all my own NES's could be called immersionist exactly.
Perhaps the 'ideal NES' is one that somehow provides for all types of NESers. The biggest problem I see is the time interval between updates, that's one thing that can't really be made to suit all sides...
I'd place myself as an immersionist, but I don't think all my own NES's could be called immersionist exactly.
Perhaps the 'ideal NES' is one that somehow provides for all types of NESers. The biggest problem I see is the time interval between updates, that's one thing that can't really be made to suit all sides...
germanicus12
First Citizen of Rome
I would consider myself an Immersionist.
Angst
Rambling and inconsistent
I have to be explained what I am. Way to tired to understand the block of text now. 
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