New York Policeman in "cannibal plot"

[Borachio]

What on earth is happening here?

A New York City policeman has been arrested for an alleged plot to kidnap women, rape and torture them and then cook and eat their body parts.

Gilberto Valle is being held in custody without bail on charges that include kidnapping conspiracy and unauthorised use of law enforcement databases.

The authorities were alerted by the suspect's estranged wife.

No women were hurt, but the 28-year-old used police records to gather data on potential victims, officials alleged.

Magistrate Judge Henry Pitman said the charges against the officer were "profoundly disturbing".

Mr Valle, who has served in the police force for six years, sat quietly through the hearing, correspondents say.

"This case is all the more disturbing when you consider Valle's position as a police officer” Preet Bharara, Manhattan federal prosecutor.

His public defence lawyers said the alleged plans were a deviant "fantasy in a sexual world", that had never crossed the line into reality.

Federal officials say they learned about Mr Valle's plan in September after he discussed with an unidentified co-conspirator on emails and instant messages from his home computer.

His wife, Kathleen, from whom Mr Valle had separated, contacted the police after finding disturbing material on the computer, officials said.

The FBI and police internal affairs officers then seized the machine, and found the messages about the alleged plots. The communications were from a fetish chat room with people outside the US, an official said.

I hate to say this, but is someone allowed this sort of fantasy under freedom of speech? Though really I'm just flabbergasted that someone would seriously even just fantasize about this sort of thing. Mind you, my own fantasies can be fairly bizarre.

 

[Synobun]

You can't really make it illegal to have certain thoughts.

You can, however, make it illegal to act on those thoughts and to compile a database to make your thoughts a greater reality.

Which is why this guy is going to jail.

 

[Phrossack]

It is, however, illegal to conspire to murder and eat people.

...and may I take this opportunity of emphasizing that there is no cannibalism in the NYPD. Absolutely none, and when I say none, I mean there is a certain amount, more than we are prepared to admit, but all new officers are warned that if they wake up in the morning and find toothmarks at all anywhere on their bodies, they're to tell me immediately so that I can immediately take every measure to hush the whole thing up.

This is an obscure Monty Python reference.

 

[AlpsStranger]

It wouldn't be illegal to write fiction or even draw pictures ( I think, IANAL. )

But even appearing to plan to actually do it is a bad, bad idea.

 

[ZeletDude]

Yeah thinking about it is legal (not normal.. but yeah..) but actually researching to do so.. well that kinda crosses the line imo. :\

 

[Borachio]

It wouldn't be illegal to write fiction or even draw pictures ( I think, IANAL. )

But even appearing to plan to actually do it is a bad, bad idea.

That looks to me like a very fine line you're drawing there. And, I suspect, this is what the man's defence is going to hinge on.

There's an interesting parallel here between this case and the bomb plot terrorist, who was aided by the FBI, but only incidentally, I hasten to add.

But this guy is a cop. Not a very experienced one, apparently, but he must surely have some insight into where to draw the line. Or maybe he just couldn't help himself.

Maybe it started out as a simple fantasy and got out of hand when he shared it with someone else. So his "rehearsals" just developed more and more, to the point of singling out potential victims and drawing up a list.

 

[AlpsStranger]

When I say "draw pictures" I don't mean draw pictures, like that, of someone you work with or something. I meant "generic" pictures of horrible stuff like that. Drawing pictures of Jane from Accounting in such situations would probably be considered threatening.

 

[Borachio]

Yes. I thought that was what you meant.

But there is a view that what you habitually think about has some significance and effect on what you do.

On the other hand, some fantasies could be simply cathartic.

I don't know how to tell the difference. How can I tell the difference?

 

[AlpsStranger]

Doesn't matter. One is disturbing but probably legal. The other is actually illegal.

Prolly consider discouraging your daughter from dating someone who thinks that way, though.

 

[Borachio]

Thing is, though: most, sensible, people don't tend to share their most serious fantasies. At least, judging from myself and my closest friends of course, I don't think they do.

 

[~Corsair#01~]

In both Skyrim and Fallout New Vegas you have the option to cannibalise people. I don't think that surfing websites or viewing materials with this sort of thing in them should be innately illegal.

If he genuinely constitutes a threat to others then its true that the greater good would be served by locking him up, but how can you prove something like that? The link between fantasising about something and doing it is vast.

EDIT- I may have missed reading the "rape and torture" part, which in hindsight is probably the most worrying thing.

 

[Borachio]

I saw a youtube clip of Skyrim. Where the character was repeatedly torturing and reviving a victim several times in order to gain some benefit or other, I forget what.

It was quite alarming. Even though only fantasy, I hope.

 

[Traitorfish]

"This case is all the more disturbing when you consider Valle's position as a police officer” Preet Bharara, Manhattan federal prosecutor.

I dunno, violent sociopathy is skill that security personnel generally make a point of cultivating.

 

[ParkCungHee]

I dunno, violent sociopathy is skill that security personnel generally make a point of cultivating.

Yes, skilled labor like that is why it's so important for them to mind the no moonlighting clauses.

 

[dirtyparrot]

That looks to me like a very fine line you're drawing there. And, I suspect, this is what the man's defence is going to hinge on.

There's an interesting parallel here between this case and the bomb plot terrorist, who was aided by the FBI, but only incidentally, I hasten to add.

But this guy is a cop. Not a very experienced one, apparently, but he must surely have some insight into where to draw the line. Or maybe he just couldn't help himself.

Maybe it started out as a simple fantasy and got out of hand when he shared it with someone else. So his "rehearsals" just developed more and more, to the point of singling out potential victims and drawing up a list.

In this case it's pretty evident that there isn't a blurry line. From what I've read, this officer used his access to police databases to get information on his intended targets. So, there's more than just thinking or fantasy going on there. There are additional things such as him agreeing to kidnap someone for somebody else.

Even if he hadn't acted on his "fantasy", I have a feeling that the police are monitoring those type of sites. So, in this case, free speech may well have put him on the police's map.

 

[Borachio]

Oh right. I thought it was his ex wife alerted the police, who examined e-mails and text messages. Is there a web site? I must have missed that.

I agree this guy looks banged to rights. But I'm concerned about where the line is between harmless fantasy and criminal intent. And maybe there is no line. Just one situation where it's clearly of no account and another where it clearly does matter.

 

[AlpsStranger]

If I'm reading this correctly, this dude is ( rightly ) screwed.

 

[JollyRoger]

I do not see a step here that has crossed the criminal line yet on the more serious charges. There may be some sort of crime for the way he was using the databases, but I do not think this is any more of a crime than a potential bank robber obtaining the addresses of banks.

 

[Borachio]

What if the bank robber observes the bank for a prolonged period of time, taking copious notes and conspiring with others?

 

[JollyRoger]

We had the bank robber hypo in law school on where the line is crossed for attempt. I didn't see attempt until the suspect handed the note to the teller. Some of my classmates so attempt when the guy chose a bank to case.

Conspiracy requires an act in furtherance of the conspiracy, so the line is a little more remote from the crime, but just observing and taking notes does not seem far enough to me.