Paris burning

[TheEvilCheater]

Then that must mean that the law is not enforced probably, which was one of the conditions I already mentioned for it to work.

wow talk about a straw weight arguement. Lets hope a slight breeze doesnt come into the thread and blow it over.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Then that must mean that the law is not enforced probably, which was one of the conditions I already mentioned for it to work.

Could you elaborate on how to enforce that ban? House to house searches?

Then how do you explain DC with its fewer guns and higher gun violence per person and some random county in Texas where guns could literally outnumber people which has very lax gun laws which has much lower gun crime?

Are the rednecks just better at enforcing gun laws (even though there is practically none) over Urban City police?

Some laws are simply uneforcible in the US. Marijuana for example. Millions of people have been imprisoned and fined for MJ crimes for over 30 years but Americans still toke up like there was no tomorrow.

 

[Jorge]

Then how do you explain DC with its fewer guns and higher gun violence per person and some random county in Texas where guns could literally outnumber people which has very lax gun laws which has much lower gun crime?

For a given crime rate, the number of people killed by guns is lower if the guns are banned. Comparing regions with different crime rates does not explain anything (guns per se don´t generate/prevent crime, they just make crimes more likely to end with a killed person). Big cities have by far more crime rate than small villages, so stating that DC has more people killed by guns than a small county in Texas is not an argument for anything.

 

[IglooDame]

To return the thread topic from gun-control back to Paris Burning while I agree with the folks who say that this is a 'social issue' and not a criminal justice one, I think that the fact that the violence is ongoing and spreading (can it be long before other EU countries with similar circumstances feel it too?) requires a tougher stand. It is a remarkable show of restraint to not 'cry havoc and loose the dogs of war' but I think the leadership is muddying the lesson to be taught unnecessarily. It seems to me that similar historical circumstances have almost universally resulted in tough crackdowns in response to rioting of this nature, decried by everyone except law-and-order types, but only then does peaceful recognition of the problem and attempts for long-term resolution go forward. Without the crackdown, disenfranchised groups only get the lesson that rioting is the only way to make themselves listened to; post-crackdown there should be community leaders with cooler heads that can actually converse with Mssrs. Sarkozy, Chirac, and de Villepin and address the problems.

I'm not calling for the army to go in with guns blazing, but surely the police can muster considerably more force for some of the larger 'flash-riots' and seek to contain and arrest rather than disperse.

 

[storealex]

Evil cheater, if you have something to say, please to do like an adult, or I shall narrow my discussiong to bugfatty, who at least come up with arguments.


About enforcing, well Im not expert but in Denmark, the possibility that you'll get caught, plus the sentence you'll recieve, simply makes it "not worth it" for many of these young "gangsta types"

Then how do you explain DC with its fewer guns and higher gun violence per person and some random county in Texas where guns could literally outnumber people which has very lax gun laws which has much lower gun crime?

Because Texas is rural. I already said that this was more than just a legislation issue. I already said it's also a social issue. So frankly, I more or less answered your question already.

 

[Winner]

To return the thread topic from gun-control back to Paris Burning while I agree with the folks who say that this is a 'social issue' and not a criminal justice one, I think that the fact that the violence is ongoing and spreading (can it be long before other EU countries with similar circumstances feel it too?) requires a tougher stand. It is a remarkable show of restraint to not 'cry havoc and loose the dogs of war' but I think the leadership is muddying the lesson to be taught unnecessarily. It seems to me that similar historical circumstances have almost universally resulted in tough crackdowns in response to rioting of this nature, decried by everyone except law-and-order types, but only then does peaceful recognition of the problem and attempts for long-term resolution go forward. Without the crackdown, disenfranchised groups only get the lesson that rioting is the only way to make themselves listened to; post-crackdown there should be community leaders with cooler heads that can actually converse with Mssrs. Sarkozy, Chirac, and de Villepin and address the problems.

I'm not calling for the army to go in with guns blazing, but surely the police can muster considerably more force for some of the larger 'flash-riots' and seek to contain and arrest rather than disperse.

Well, the french policemen apparently don't think they can handle it on their own:

The police union Action Police CFTC urged the government on Monday to impose a curfew on the riot-hit areas and call in the army to control the youths, many of whom are French-born citizens of Arab or African origin complaining of racial discrimination.

"Nothing seems to be able to stop the civil war that spreads a bit more every day across the whole country," it said in a statement. "The events we're living through now are without precedent since the end of the Second World War."

BTW, I heard some cars were burned in Berlin and Brussels. The French have to do something, or it will spread accross the whole Europe.

 

[IglooDame]

Well, the french policemen apparently don't think they can handle it on their own:

I guess it hadn't occurred to me yet one way or the other, but I'm a bit surprised they haven't imposed a curfew prior to now. Surely everyone would agree that that would be step 1 on bringing nightly rioting under control?

BTW, I heard some cars were burned in Berlin and Brussels. The French have to do something, or it will spread accross the whole Europe.

Perhaps the French leadership is waiting for it to spread to other countries, and then use the inevitable harsh crackdowns in those countries to paint themselves as moderates in this regard? No, that's way too evil a plan...

 

[Winner]

I guess it hadn't occurred to me yet one way or the other, but I'm a bit surprised they haven't imposed a curfew prior to now. Surely everyone would agree that that would be step 1 on bringing nightly rioting under control?

You're right. Why they haven't imposed it yet is beyond my understanding

Perhaps the French leadership is waiting for it to spread to other countries, and then use the inevitable harsh crackdowns in those countries to paint themselves as moderates in this regard? No, that's way too evil a plan...

(the French are evil, you know )

 

[TheEvilCheater]

Evil cheater, if you have something to say, please to do like an adult, or I shall narrow my discussiong to bugfatty, who at least come up with arguments.

LoL ill start responding to your stuff when you say something wroth responding. We say guns are banned in alot of places and it doesnt stop it. And your responce is ovbiously there not being properlly enforced. You dont have any stats to back that up or heck knowledge of the area since your european.

 

[Steph]

A little off-topic, but I thought France was a gun-free society?

So much for the anti-gun people using post-Katrina riots and anarchy as reason to ban guns.

Yes, but some guns are allowed, like hunting rifle. This one this kind of rifle that was used.
However, we also have pb with illegal guns to.

 

[storealex]

LoL ill start responding to your stuff when you say something wroth responding

So basically, what your saying is that if I provide you with arguments which you do not considder worth responding to, instead of not responding, you will become childish and begin to insult me...

We say guns are banned in alot of places and it doesnt stop it. And your responce is ovbiously there not being properlly enforced. You dont have any stats to back that up or heck knowledge of the area since your european.

I never said a ban would stop it, only decrease it. And of course is a law not properly enforced if it's constantly broken. You don't have to be American to figure that out...

 

[TheEvilCheater]

So basically, what your saying is that if I provide you with arguments which you do not considder worth responding to, instead of not responding, you will become childish and begin to insult me...

Uh didnt really insult yea. Unless you think calling your arguement as weak as a strawman than well you got some thin skin for an Off Topic forum on the net.

I never said a ban would stop it, only decrease it. And of course is a law not properly enforced if it's constantly broken. You don't have to be American to figure that out...

My point is how do you know its not enforced? How do you know they dont arrest countless poeple a day for gun violations. You dont but that doesnt stop you from asuming ie thats y your arguement was so weak. Tho your arguement is illogical. We should ban guns. But you freely admit you wont stop gun activity . And then you say rural areas will have less violence even tho they have more guns. So y excactly are we banning guns again?

 

[Bugfatty300]

About enforcing, well Im not expert but in Denmark, the possibility that you'll get caught, plus the sentence you'll recieve, simply makes it "not worth it" for many of these young "gangsta types"

The penalties for weapons vialations are incredibly stiff depending on severity and local laws. They're different for each state but almost all of them are felonies.

For instance if you buy a gun for someone else other than yourself then thats 10 years and $15,000 fines. Some worse stuff (Federal and state violations) can get you 25 years to life. In someplaces, if you use a handgun in any kind of crime then thats an automatic life sentence.

I have no idea what they are in DC but I would bet you half a penny and a pickle that they are stiff.

What are the penalties in Denmark?

Because Texas is rural. I already said that this was more than just a legislation issue. I already said it's also a social issue. So frankly, I more or less answered your question already.

Fair enough.

 

[Steph]

Some updates : left figure is for last evening (sunday to monday), right figure is total since the 27 of october.

Cars burnt: 1408; 4700
Shots with real bullet against firemen or policemen: 1; 6
People arrested : 395; 1200
Policemen wounded: 36;77
Gendarms wounded : none
Firemen wounded: 5; 31

Well, the french policemen apparently don't think they can handle it on their own:

PARIS (AP) -- «En aucun cas il ne faut faire appel à l'armée. Nous ne sommes pas en guerre», a déclaré lundi à l'Associated Press le secrétaire général adjoint de l'UNSA-Police (Union nationale des syndicats autonomes-Police) Francis Masanet, au lendemain d'une onzième nuit de violences urbaines.

«En aucun cas il ne faut faire appel à l'armée. Nous ne sommes pas en guerre. La police nationale est là pour rétablir l'ordre sur le territoire, c'est son métier», a déclaré M. Masanet, dont le syndicat est majoritaire chez les policiers, avec notamment 73% des voix parmi les CRS aux dernières élections professionnelles.

Interrogé sur la situation actuelle, M. Masanet a expliqué qu'il y avait des «jeunes» se livrant à de la «surenchère» entre quartiers chaque nuit, parmi lesquels se trouve des «perturbateurs» qu'il faut extraire des cités et livrer à la justice.

«Parmi les jeunes, c'est à celui qui va faire le plus de conneries en voyant ce qui se passe ailleurs. Il y a de la surenchère entre cités», a-t-il dit. «Il y a tous les mineurs, et puis aussi des adultes, des meneurs qu'il faut qu'on retire de ces cités pour rétablir l'ordre».

Translation by me (with some shortening of the text)
We must not call for the army. We are not at war, declared the Deputy General Secretary of UNSA Police (Police union, with tehe majority, 73% of the CRS voted for this union at the last union elections). The National Police is here to gring back order in the territory, it's her job.

Interview about the current situation, M. Masanet explained there was some youngster who tried to overbid between cities every night, and among them leaders that have to be extracted from the cities and send to jail".
[/QUOTE]

FYI, I learn today was there were some blogs were youngsters challenge the others to do even more damage.
It's a kind of deadly game between "banlieux"...

I suggest we send each of them a free copy of Civ, so they can challenge each others without destroying the properties of others.

 

[storealex]

Uh didnt really insult yea. Unless you think calling your arguement as weak as a strawman than well you got some thin skin for an Off Topic forum on the net.

It's also insulting because there's nothing more to it. If you said what you did, and then said why you thought so, it would be different.

My point is how do you know its not enforced? How do you know they dont arrest countless poeple a day for gun violations. You dont but that doesnt stop you from asuming ie thats y your arguement was so weak.

That's simply not true.
I say "If the law is constantly broken, it is not enforced properley" But for some reason, you treat my statement as if I said "If the law is constantly broken, it is not enforced at all"
You call my argument illogical, but it only seems that way because you change it to be something it is not, please refer to what I write only.

 

[FriendlyFire]

[qoute]People arrested : 395; 1200[/qoute]

The police had made over 30% of total arrest in a single night. Thats quite suprising given that despite this number rioting has continued

 

[TheEvilCheater]

It's also insulting because there's nothing more to it. If you said what you did, and then said why you thought so, it would be different.


That's simply not true.
I say "If the law is constantly broken, it is not enforced properley" But for some reason, you treat my statement as if I said "If the law is constantly broken, it is not enforced at all"
You call my argument illogical, but it only seems that way because you change it to be something it is not, please refer to what I write only.

uhh lol ok. You know its not enforced properly. Do you know how many crimes go on. Do you know how many they dont catch. My whole arguement is your making guesses when you have no idea if its not properly enforced or not.

 

[storealex]

What are the penalties in Denmark?

Those senteneces you mentioned seem very harsh. Is that the typical sentence, or the "worst case scenario" for a criminal?

Anyway, if indeed he can expect to be so severly punished if caught, let me ask you; How big is his chance of getting caught? From what I've heard from the Americans I've met, gang related violence is the big cities can be very hard to investigate, while if somebody does something in the countryside, everybody knows who did it.

 

[storealex]

uhh lol ok. You know its not enforced properly. Do you know how many crimes go on. Do you know how many they dont catch. My whole arguement is your making guesses when you have no idea if its not properly enforced or not.

Dude, if a law is constantly and severly broken on a large scale, then surely it is not enforced properly. There's no guessing involved here.

 

[TheEvilCheater]

Dude, if a law is constantly and severly broken on a large scale, then surely it is not enforced properly. There's no guessing involved here.

gah your thick.

I give up you dont even understand the fundamental part of my arguement.

How do you know its broked on a large scale all teh time? You admitted as mcu as you'd never stop it 100%

Its a city of over half a million its has a mind blowing 240murders. 3.5k Robberies. It doesnt seem like its awash in violence. But thats with guns banned. Theres places with more guns and less crime. The crime rate in DC is to be excepted of such a large urban area. You ban guns they still get them.

So please i wait for detailed stats on how its laws are being constantly brokenn