'Personhood' Ammendment in Mississippi

[useless]

But you see, a woman's rights aren't worth anything, in comparison to a fetuses'.

Even if the woman is the only actual person in this situation.

 

[Ayatollah So]

This is where the embryo is, for me. People insist that "it's a person". If I ask why people say that, they'll first be a bit confused and say "Well, because it will grow into a person".

That's NOT what they usually say. I ultimately agree more with you than with them, but give the devils their due. You are creating a straw man.

An embryo is generally an organism of the same species as its parents. That's not true of a scratched-off skin cell, which fails to be an organism at all. Why? Probably because evolution designed the embryo for the purpose of growing into an adult, while this is not true of the skin cell. (OK, most pro-lifers would say "God" not "evolution", but regardless of our origins-of-life views, we can agree that there's a biologically-interesting difference there.)

Now, is that a morally crucial difference? I don't think so, any more than you do. But let's not pretend the view is incoherent just because we disagree.

 

[holy king]

Is a fluffed off skin cell laying on the floor of your home going to naturally develop into a walking talking adult in 18 years? A fertilized egg naturally will, unless that process is interrupted. It could be interrupted by a miscarriage, yes, but that is also an act of nature and not comparable to the willful act of an abortion.

an artificially fertilized human egg in a test tube in a freezer is NOT going to naturally develop into a walking talking adult in 18 years. not even in 18 billion years.

but that's exactly what this law would declare a "person". i mean, come on...

 

[Linkman226]

If we say that being a member of the species Homo sapiens is the definition of personhood, so that embryos count, then we also have to say that corporations are not persons. Sounds like a good devil's bargain to me

That's pretty much the stance I hold.

And Leftwingers won't stop trying to make it legal to kill babies.

Pidgeon-holing are we?

Involuntary manslaughter?

This was addressed. No more than a woman slipping and killing her two year old.

Those monsters.

Why are they monsters exactly?

Is anyone going to answer the point about this law turning IVF clinics into murder factories or not?

That's pretty much what they are.

Just keep crippling yourself in the science and technology race, America. I am honestly curious to see how that would turn out.

Yes, you're right. We should sacrifice the health and welfare of persons for the greater glory of science. Those involved in the Tuskegee syphilis trials are true heroes. We should also discard any and all rules against or restrictive of animal and human cruelty in the lab.

What's biased is that these communo-fascist atheist hippy mass murderers want to kill your children.

Stereotyping. I am an atheist and a "communist" by the standards of America (read: moderate socialist by European standards) , and yet I am also against abortion.

 

[El_Machinae]

An embryo is generally an organism of the same species as its parents. That's not true of a scratched-off skin cell, which fails to be an organism at all. Why? Probably because evolution designed the embryo for the purpose of growing into an adult, while this is not true of the skin cell.

I dunno. I think that calling something an 'organism' is also an attempt to create a solid definition that usually works, but sometimes doesn't. Why isn't a skin cell an 'organism'? Is a sperm an organism? Is a HeLa cell an organism? Are two embryos two organisms? But then what about a chimera, is it an organism? Two organisms? And if a skin cells isn't an organism, when does it become so on the way to becoming a person?

My only objection to your objection is that 'organism' is a fuzzy definition

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

But you see, a woman's rights aren't worth anything, in comparison to a fetuses'.

Even if the woman is the only actual person in this situation.

murder is not a right. Anyway, I don't care if it doesn't look human, it will form into a child if it is nourished, killing it is just wrong, no one should have that right, to take away life and justify it just because it's unborn, it sickens me, it is the great social injustice of our day, Almost every western country allows it too, except Ireland and a few others, meaning that they are not very progressed in their understanding of human rights.

 

[useless]

murder is not a right. Anyway, I don't care if it doesn't look human, it will form into a child if it is nourished, killing it is just wrong, no one should have that right, to take away life and justify it just because it's unborn, it sickens me, it is the great social injustice of our day, Almost every western country allows it too, except Ireland and a few others, meaning that they are not very progressed in their understanding of human rights.

So periods are also murder and also wrong?

 

[Moss]

This seems like a silly, silly way to try to get around Roe by Mississippi and likely to get killed in the Courts for a variety of reasons. I think if Mississippi were to just pass a law banning abortion altogether, Roe v. Wade would be overturned by the Supreme Court, or at least, they'd have a better chance of doing what they want to do instead of passing this (SCOTUS has continued to limit the scope of Roe since it was decided and it's not far from overturning altogether in my mind - especially with the structure of the current Court and the decision upholding the partial-birth abortion ban enacted by Congress).

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

So periods are also murder and also wrong?

Periods are not intentional, this argument is silly.

 

[warpus]

The implications of this absurd law seem pretty far reaching.

I would not want to be a woman living in Mississippi if this passes.

 

[Linkman226]

I would not want to be a fetus if it doesn't.

 

[Formaldehyde]

murder is not a right. Anyway, I don't care if it doesn't look human, it will form into a child if it is nourished, killing it is just wrong, no one should have that right, to take away life and justify it just because it's unborn, it sickens me, it is the great social injustice of our day, Almost every western country allows it too, except Ireland and a few others, meaning that they are not very progressed in their understanding of human rights.

It is actually just the opposite. Advanced countries have progressed from when abortions were considered to be crimes based on provincial religious morals.

I think it is quite simple. If sex isn't strictly for procreation, which it obviously no longer is, there must be a means of dealing with unwanted pregnancies when birth control fails. Shotgun marriages are a relic of the past.

 

[Moss]

It is actually just the opposite. Advanced countries have progressed from when abortions were considered to be crimes based on provincial religious morals.

I think it is quite simple. If sex isn't strictly for procreation, which it obviously no longer is, there must be a means of dealing with unwanted pregnancies when birth control fails. Shotgun marriages are a relic of the past.

There are many methods of dealing with an unwanted pregnancy that don't involve abortion - adoption for one.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I think it is time we finally put an end to that myth. There are literally hundreds of millions of unadopted children in the world. There are over 2 million new orphans each year in Africa alone.

http://thirdworldorphans.org/gpage39.html

Every 15 SECONDS, another child becomes an AIDS orphan in Africa

Every DAY 5,760 more children become orphans

Every YEAR 2,102,400 more children become orphans (in Africa alone)

143,000,000 Orphans in the world today spend an average of 10 years in an orphanage or foster home

Approximately 250,000 children are adopted annually, but…

Every YEAR 14,050,000 children still grow up as orphans and AGE OUT of the system

Every DAY 38,493 children AGE OUT

Every 2.2 SECONDS, another orphan child AGES OUT with no family to belong to and no place to call home

In Ukraine and Russia 10% -15% of children who age out of an orphanage commit suicide before age 18

60% of the girls are lured into prostitution

70% of the boys become hardened criminals.

Now add to that the number of abortions per year:

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

WORLDWIDE

Number of abortions per year: Approximately 42 Million
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 115,000

Where abortions occur:
83% of all abortions are obtained in developing countries and 17% occur in developed countries.

UNITED STATES

Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996)
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 3,700

 

[Moss]

I'm not sure how orphans in Africa (or the rest of the world) have much to do with adoptions of American babies in America? There are plenty of families that would be willing to adopt children that would otherwise have been aborted.

Does it cover every situation, no, but it's an option other than abortion.

 

[Formaldehyde]

It pretty well destroys the notion that people would adopt if there were babies available.

There are millions of unadopted children in the US. It also forces the woman to suffer the stigma of bringing an unwanted child to term, unless you are proposing a surgical procedure where the fetus is transplanted into a willing woman if that is even possible.

 

[Moss]

There are millions of unadopted children in the US.

That may be the case, but does that mean that if a woman gets pregnant that adoption isn't an option (one of many)?

You stated that "there must be a means of dealing with unwanted pregnancies when birth control fails." Why is abortion the only means of dealing with unwanted pregnancies?

 

[Formaldehyde]

It isn't. There are many women who won't have abortions but give their babies up when they bring them to term. And many of them are never adopted.

It clearly should be the woman's choice, not the state.

 

[cardgame]

I completely agree with this and I am definitely no christian. Once you have unique DNA you exist.

That's such an arbitrary measure though. Why?

 

[warpus]

I would not want to be a fetus if it doesn't.

Who ever wanted to be a fetus, anyway?