Plan for Mosque III...

[El_Machinae]

So guilt by association then? Nice morality there.

We're on page whatever of a really long-winded thread. I'd like to point out the evil that's caused by allowing people to feel like it's 'okay' to continue to discriminate against muslims as if they carry some responsibility for 9/11.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16579214

Birth outcomes for Arabic-named women in California before and after September 11.

Persons who were perceived to be Arabs experienced a period of increased harassment, violence, and workplace discrimination in the United States in the weeks immediately following September 11, 2001. Drawing on prior studies that have hypothesized that experiences of discrimination increase the risk of preterm birth and low birth weight, this study explores whether there was an effect on birth outcomes for pregnant women of Arab descent. California birth certificate data are used to determine the relative risk of poor birth outcomes by race, ethnicity, and nativity for women who gave birth in the six months following September 2001, compared with the same six calendar months one year earlier. The relative risk of poor birth outcomes was significantly elevated for Arabic-named women and not for any of the other groups.

Anyone who's justifying resentment and discrimination against Muslim citizens, who justifies that these feelings and actions are somehow 'acceptable' are basically willing to be like the people who mistreated these women. And this point, it's merely a matter of scale.

 

[Dumanios]

I'm not sure if these points have been pointed out already, but I'll point em out.

1: It's not at Ground Zero. It's about 2 blocks away.

2: It's not a mosque, it's a community center with a mosque inside it. Is St. Mary's hospital a Church because it has Christian prayer space within it?

3: We have this little something called the 1st Amendment, it guarantees Freedom of Religion.

 

[Cutlass]

I'm not sure if these points have been pointed out already, but I'll point em out.

1: It's not at Ground Zero. It's about 2 blocks away.

2: It's not a mosque, it's a community center with a mosque inside it. Is St. Mary's hospital a Church because it has Christian prayer space within it?

3: We have this little something called the 1st Amendment, it guarantees Freedom of Religion.

All good points, and all points that have been made at least 100 times on the subject.

 

[Ajidica]

I still love it. During the Health Care Reform the right was screaming about how we are a 'rule by law' republic that stops Athenian Democracies. What do they want now? The Athenian Democracy to ignore the laws.

 

[MobBoss]

We're on page whatever of a really long-winded thread. I'd like to point out the evil that's caused by allowing people to feel like it's 'okay' to continue to discriminate against muslims as if they carry some responsibility for 9/11.

How is this discrimnation? People asking someone to be considerate of others feeliings over a terrorist attack is now discrimination?

And I disagree. I absolutely do think muslims carry responsiblity for 9/11 just like the Japanese carried responsibility for Pearl Harbor. Trying to deny that 9/11 wasnt perpetrated by muslims is just silly political correctness run amok.

Again, vocal opposition to this mosque isnt discrimination...its a request for the planners to be cognizant of what occurred on 9/11 and how that event affected the nation. Thats all.

 

[naterator]

And I disagree. I absolutely do think muslims carry responsiblity for 9/11 just like the Japanese carried responsibility for Pearl Harbor.

It has been pointed out numerous times that the japanese government bombed pearl harbor, while 9/11 was carried out by a fringe group. Big difference.

 

[MobBoss]

I'm not sure if these points have been pointed out already, but I'll point em out.

By all means, let me counter your points.

1: It's not at Ground Zero. It's about 2 blocks away.

You do realize that the previous building at the location had to be demolished because of damage it got from debris from the WTC. Thats how close it is. 2 blocks is well within the 'blast zone' of the WTC towers and outer buildings coming down.

2: It's not a mosque, it's a community center with a mosque inside it. Is St. Mary's hospital a Church because it has Christian prayer space within it?

No, its a mosque, and if you doubt that, just follow the tax-exemption status of the project. I have pointed out repeatedly where other churchs/mosques have community centers, etc. and are absolutely still accurately described as a church or mosque. This one isnt any different.

3: We have this little something called the 1st Amendment, it guarantees Freedom of Religion.

No one is being denied freedom of religion. At all. And that 1st Amendment also guarentees Freedom of Speech as well doesnt it? Legal dissent is still legal.

It has been pointed out numerous times that the japanese government bombed pearl harbor, while 9/11 was carried out by a fringe group. Big difference.

Yes, but even other Japanese not even living in Japan had to deal with it didnt they?

Of course they did.

Its still a very accurate analogy.

 

[Haseri]

And I disagree. I absolutely do think muslims carry responsiblity for 9/11 just like the Japanese carried responsibility for Pearl Harbor. Trying to deny that 9/11 wasnt perpetrated by muslims is just silly political correctness run amok.

Woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah.

Woah.

Wait.

Nobody is denying that a certain group of Muslims perpatrated 9/11.

But the group that wants to build this community centre perpatrated nothing.

What about all those American Muslims that came to America long before 9/11? The ones that moved into your communities and integrated and grew up here. The ones that love America just as much as you? Do they have to answer for the heinous act a few commited?

 

[MobBoss]

What about all those American Muslims that came to America long before 9/11? The ones that moved into your communities and integrated and grew up here. The ones that love America just as much as you? Do they have to answer for the heinous act a few commited?

I think they should understand the situation and the position it puts them in. Remember Japanese Americans in WWI had to deal with the very same thing. Now, before you go off, I am not advocating we round them up and put them in camps or anything so please dont go there. But my point is as a demograph whole, they are simply going to be under an increased level of suspecion by the the rest of the nation because of the heinous acts by people of their same faith.

I also point out the fact that several of the unsuccessful attacks on american soil were attempted by 'muslim americans' that were here prior 9/11. That doesnt help much either.

 

[El_Machinae]

How is this discrimnation?

I absolutely do think muslims carry responsiblity for 9/11

No, Muslims carry responsibility for venerating a prophet that advocated the murder of apostates. That's where their responsibility lies. Just like Christians bear responsibility for telling their children to worship a god that slaughtered babies. They both bear responsibility for what goes on in their own churches, at a level they can affect. Not to events a world away.

The culpability is to the odious aspects of their own faith, not to the actions of people who they had no control over. Islam needs to be cleaned up, absolutely. It would really help if the Abrahamics could clean up their faiths, yeah. But persecuting Muslims for 9/11 is morally offensive and is futile as well.

 

[Ajidica]

You are aware that the group trying to build the Mosque are Sufis who are almost complete pacifists?

Sufism is to Wahabism in Islam as Pacifism is to Militancy in Christianity. Same religion, but completly different beliefs.

How many years has to pass before it would be okay to build a mosque there? What is the difference between 2 blocks and the Mosque 4 blocks away? An article in my paper pointed out that there already are muslims meeting there for prayer because the existing mosque is overcrowded.
Would you be just as opposed if somebody was trying to build a strip club there? Isn't a religous building advocating for peace, tolerance, and understanding better than a strip club?

Crap. Edit Ninjad by zaroc.

 

[flamingzaroc121]

Does anyone realize that there already is a mosque at the site? People have been worshipping there for a little while. And just cause there is all this craziness, doesnt mean they are going to stop.

Source

 

[naterator]

I think they should understand the situation and the position it puts them in. Remember Japanese Americans in WWI had to deal with the very same thing. Now, before you go off, I am not advocating we round them up and put them in camps or anything so please dont go there. But my point is as a demograph whole, they are simply going to be under an increased level of suspecion by the the rest of the nation because of the heinous acts by people of their same faith.

So you're saying that one should accede to the xenophobia of those who condemn you due to guilt by association, but only if enough people express this opinion? Couldn't we at least try to be more tolerant than we were in the 1940's?

 

[Haseri]

But my point is as a demograph whole, they are simply going to be under an increased level of suspecion by the the rest of the nation because of the heinous acts by people of their same faith.

Why should they?

 

[ParadigmShifter]

How come repeatedly posting the exact same arguments that seem to have convinced approximately zero people is not regarded as spam? I mean... 3 threads of this

 

[Cu Chulainn]

Yes, but even other Japanese not even living in Japan had to deal with it didnt they?

Of course they did.

Its still a very accurate analogy.

And it was the second most disgraceful thing to ever occur in American history! (Lumping all the horrible slavery related things together in one big pile of fail.)

Correction: THIRD forgot the treatment of the indigenous tribes

 

[sophie]

People who protest to appeal to the BUILDERS OF THE MOSQUE asking them to reconsider are not [infringing on the first amendment].

If that's all there is to it, then this entire story is merely a testament to the tremendously disingenuous and inflammatory nature of the media. The builders of the mosque will build it regardless of what others think, and those opposed will look like a bunch of stuck-up, whiny kindergarten kids afterwards.

Thisssssssssssssss.

You're right, the more correct term is bigotry. Or ignorance. Or hatred.

And, you have it wrong, 9/11 was caused by jackhole terrorists. Being Muslim is incidental.

But, if we want to use your "logic", I don't think we should have any churches near doctor's buildings. No Catholic churches near schools or playgrounds. Hell, no military bases near anyone at all. No men should be allowed near women or children anywhere.

This too. Good post . For the last time, it's not the "Mooslems" that did this, it was a fundamentalist branch of the Muslim Faith. This is like calling all Mormons polygamists (which many, especially in the LDS would find extremely insulting), or blaming Catholicism for the IRA.

Evidence of True British Spirit! *Raises cup of Tea and drinks*

That post was totally a CMoH

 

[MobBoss]

No, Muslims carry responsibility for venerating a prophet that advocated the murder of apostates. That's where their responsibility lies. Just like Christians bear responsibility for telling their children to worship a god that slaughtered babies. They both bear responsibility for what goes on in their own churches, at a level they can affect. Not to events a world away.

The culpability is to the odious aspects of their own faith, not to the actions of people who they had no control over. Islam needs to be cleaned up, absolutely. It would really help if the Abrahamics could clean up their faiths, yeah. But persecuting Muslims for 9/11 is morally offensive and is futile as well.

I remind you I am not persecuting anyone. Asking for the mosque planners to reconsider isnt persecution. Hunting them down with torch and pitchfork would be, but that simply isnt the case here. But I dont expect us to agree on this point.

So you're saying that one should accede to the xenophobia of those who condemn you due to guilt by association, but only if enough people express this opinion? Couldn't we at least try to be more tolerant than we were in the 1940's?

We are. In the 1940s this wouldnt have even been a controversy.

 

[Haseri]

Just curious MobBoss, but what will you do if this community centre gets built?

 

[MobBoss]

You are aware that the group trying to build the Mosque are Sufis who are almost complete pacifists?

Pacifists eh? http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/07/31/somalia.sufis.fighting/index.html

I guess some groups didnt get the memo or something.

I also remind you that the famed Turkish Jannisaries were historically sufi muslims. So, its not all pacifism apparently.

Just curious MobBoss, but what will you do if this community centre gets built?

Continue to believe it wasnt such a great idea. Watch and listen. And if I am indeed proven wrong in the future, I will be man enough to admit it.

Other than that...not a dang thing else.

Good enough for ya?