Pope Says There's A Global War on The Family - He's Right, and I'm Glad

So... a group of households?
A group of households structured in a particular way, one which didn't have anything to do with kinship, in which a kinship-relation was, typically speaking, emphatically denied in favour of a distinction between noble and non-noble lineage-groups.

At any rate I think this is a largely semantic dispute. I think you will agree that the group of people who comprise today's version of the 'extended family' were pretty similar if not exactly coterminous with the group of people who would have comprised the premodern 'household.' That is all I meant originally, though in hindsight I said it in a way that implied a different meaning.
That's not really true, though. The modern "extended family" is an array of aunts, uncles and cousins, who would not typically have been expected to live within a single household in the pre-modern period. By the early modern period, they wouldn't necessarily have lived within the same community; it wasn't at all uncommon for an extended family of siblings and cousins to be spread across a string of villages.

Point being, what's now called "the nuclear family" was well-entrenched in European society by the Early Modern Period. Capitalists streamlined it, arguably transformed it from a unit of production to a unit of reproduction, but it did not create it.

The two parts of this statement seem contradictory to me. Lacking kinship, sociability, and mutual aid from the extended family, individuals would place burdens on the social structure that they otherwise weren't. Those burdens may well have been beyond the capacity of the social structure to maintain.
That's a question of mutual aid rather than of kinship as such. The role filled by kin in supplying mutual aid could be supplied by friends and neighbours, as indeed it often was. Further, this sort of kinship is relational; my maternal cousin and paternal cousin are both kin, but are not kin to each other, so have obligation to each other. The household remains a distinct economic unit, and while kinship serves a way of creating bonds between households, it does not subsume them into any stable or clearly-defined entity like a clan or lineage-group.
 
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"May" is the key word, here. Some households may have depended upon networks of kinship, but it wasn't a necessary part of manorial society. Similarly, many people in capitalism come to depend on kinship-networks, but nobody would argue that the extended family is necessary for capitalism to reproduce itself.

Maybe. That wasn't really my point though.

Individuals in a socialized capitalist society are given a whole lot of reasons to believe that their relationships with individuals (through "kinship networks," street gangs, terrorist cells, or other options) are not really critical to their well being, and many might seriously come to believe it. I am suggesting that it is not anywhere near as true as people might believe. If this misconception were universally followed and as a result a vastly larger number of individuals were left severely dissatisfied the society as a whole could lose sustainability.
 
That's really not my experience. "Gender theory", in an academic context, tends to describe the successor to academic feminism, the distinction usually being that where academic feminism was concerned narrowly with theorising women's historical subjugation, gender theory is concerned with the construction of gender itself. This is a shift which is broadly identified with third wave feminism. Second wave feminism, while pronouncing its intention to level all practical barriers between the genders, tended to retain a belief that they were distinct and members of each group carried distinct tendencies, habits and aspirations, which allows for reconciliation into a basically traditional outlook. Contemporary gender theory, in presenting gender as performative and almost voluntary is far harder to reconcile with Catholic teaching on gender.

The emergence of the "genderqueer umbrella" is perhaps an element of this, but it's also largely unknown outside of academia, left-wing activist circles and certain blogging subcultures. To the extent that the Church may even be dimly aware of "non-binary" identities, it's likely they see it as the logical conclusion of the dissolution of clear gender roles, rather than the problem.

At any rate, I doubt trans issues are what's giving the Chuch this headache. Fundamentally, transgenderism is no threat to Catholic teachings on gender: all it requires is the acknowledgement that sometimes people aren't born with all the parts lined up as they should be, and that's evident from the existence of physical and intellectual disabilities. The Church can, and I'm sure many people within it believe should, welcome trans individuals with welcome arms. Speaking for myself, I was raised by a Catholic mother who always sternly instructed me that trans people were simply "born in the wrong body", and whatever theoretical disputes we might have with that framing, it did allow for an uncomplicated reconciliation between Catholicism and trans acceptance.

Maybe. That wasn't really my point though.

Individuals in a socialized capitalist society are given a whole lot of reasons to believe that their relationships with individuals (through "kinship networks," street gangs, terrorist cells, or other options) are not really critical to their well being, and many might seriously come to believe it. I am suggesting that it is not anywhere near as true as people might believe. If this misconception were universally followed and as a result a vastly larger number of individuals were left severely dissatisfied the society as a whole could lose sustainability.
Well, fine, but that doesn't seem to have anything to do with what I was saying, that manorial society is not organised on the basis of kinship.
 
Well, fine, but that doesn't seem to have anything to do with what I was saying, that manorial society is not organised on the basis of kinship.

My response to that hasn't changed. It may not be "organized on the basis of" but that doesn't mean that it isn't "dependent on." When the societal structure says "you are free of these responsibilities, so participate happily in the society" and coughs out a list that the societal structure is really not capable of freeing people from it becomes dependent on whatever buffers are actually handling those responsibilities.

If that buffer fails the people who traded support for being relieved of their responsibilities may withdraw that support. Whether that list was the relatively small list that manorial society offered (protection from barbarians and stability of food supply) or the spectacular and ridiculous list that modern socialized capitalism offers (educate your children, secure a comfortable retirement, protect your health from bad lifestyle choices, secure your home while preserving your liberty, etc, etc, etc...) doesn't make a considerable difference.
 
That's really not my experience. "Gender theory", in an academic context, tends to describe the successor to academic feminism, the distinction usually being that where academic feminism was concerned narrowly with theorising women's historical subjugation, gender theory is concerned with the construction of gender itself. This is a shift which is broadly identified with third wave feminism. Second wave feminism, while pronouncing its intention to level all practical barriers between the genders, tended to retain a belief that they were distinct and members of each group carried distinct tendencies, habits and aspirations, which allows for reconciliation into a basically traditional outlook. Contemporary gender theory, in presenting gender as performative and almost voluntary is far harder to reconcile with Catholic teaching on gender.

That's all well and good, but that's not how the Vatican uses the term. And that's what matters for this topic: we are talking about the Vatican.

The emergence of the "genderqueer umbrella" is perhaps an element of this, but it's also largely unknown outside of academia, left-wing activist circles and certain blogging subcultures. To the extent that the Church may even be dimly aware of "non-binary" identities, it's likely they see it as the logical conclusion of the dissolution of clear gender roles, rather than the problem.

I don't know, the Pope seems very keen to condemn us whenever he gets the chance. He seems knowledgeable enough to hate us. He made references about people "choosing" their own gender, for instance, which seems broader than just transgender.

At any rate, I doubt trans issues are what's giving the Chuch this headache.

Except it is.

Fundamentally, transgenderism is no threat to Catholic teachings on gender: all it requires is the acknowledgement that sometimes people aren't born with all the parts lined up as they should be, and that's evident from the existence of physical and intellectual disabilities. The Church can, and I'm sure many people within it believe should, welcome trans individuals with welcome arms. Speaking for myself, I was raised by a Catholic mother who always sternly instructed me that trans people were simply "born in the wrong body", and whatever theoretical disputes we might have with that framing, it did allow for an uncomplicated reconciliation between Catholicism and trans acceptance.

This is optimistic thinking, which I would like to see more of. There was a time where the early church was even cool with transgender people; as I said in my first post I wrote a paper about Gregory of Tours, a bishop in Merovingian Francia, not finding the presence of what could be described as a trans woman all that bad or even out of the ordinary.

Unfortunately, the modern church is embedded with social conservatism from the top. Women still hold no power and can't be ordained, gay marriage still fought against even today in Mexico, condemnation of contraceptives in Africa leading to AIDS, and now this hateboner towards trans people. I hope it gets better, but even this so-called reformist pope isn't actually all that different from Ratzinger. I'm not holding my breath.
 
That's all well and good, but that's not how the Vatican uses the term. And that's what matters for this topic: we are talking about the Vatican.
I've seen no evidence of this. Are you able to elaborate, or is it simply impressionistic?

I don't know, the Pope seems very keen to condemn us whenever he gets the chance. He seems knowledgeable enough to hate us. He made references about people "choosing" their own gender, for instance, which seems broader than just transgender.
I honestly doubt that the Pope has the free time to care about you, at least not as distinct group. He's a busy man, and non-binary identities are baffling to anyone not acquainted with the supporting conceptual universe, and quite honestly to a lot of people who are so acquainted. If he's even aware that people subscribing to non-binary identities exist, I can't imagine he or any senior cleric imagines them as anything but another flavour of decadent liberal materialist.

My response to that hasn't changed. It may not be "organized on the basis of" but that doesn't mean that it isn't "dependent on." When the societal structure says "you are free of these responsibilities, so participate happily in the society" and coughs out a list that the societal structure is really not capable of freeing people from it becomes dependent on whatever buffers are actually handling those responsibilities.

If that buffer fails the people who traded support for being relieved of their responsibilities may withdraw that support. Whether that list was the relatively small list that manorial society offered (protection from barbarians and stability of food supply) or the spectacular and ridiculous list that modern socialized capitalism offers (educate your children, secure a comfortable retirement, protect your health from bad lifestyle choices, secure your home while preserving your liberty, etc, etc, etc...) doesn't make a considerable difference.
Well, fine, amend my phrasing accordingly. But the point stands, manorial society was not organised on the basis of extended kinship, but on the organisation of independent households, and it is those household rather than any extended kinship-group which represent the origin of the modern nuclear family.
 
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Omega said:
I don't know, the Pope seems very keen to condemn us whenever he gets the chance. He seems knowledgeable enough to hate us. He made references about people "choosing" their own gender, for instance, which seems broader than just transgender.
It is worth pointing out that the Pope is an elderly Argentinian; I doubt he is down with the lingo on a topic that outside of academia and Tumbleristas meets with well-meaning befuddlement by most of the population.

This is optimistic thinking, which I would like to see more of. There was a time where the early church was even cool with transgender people; as I said in my first post I wrote a paper about Gregory of Tours, a bishop in Merovingian Francia, not finding the presence of what could be described as a trans woman all that bad or even out of the ordinary.
I think that is a very poor reading of Gregory of Tours. Halsall argues that Gregory's emphasis was on the person's inability to do manly work, rather than any sort of sexual or gender identity. Given that transgender/homosexuality wasn't really a Thing as far as pre-modern societies were concerned (Let's be honest, pre 1960's societies); I'd be skeptical about reading too much into it.
Guy Halsall said:
Consider another story from Gregory of Tours’ gallery of the unexpected: the case of the cross-dressing Poitevin at the tribunal of the rebellious nuns of Holy Cross (Histories 10.15). Nancy Partner (1993, p.418, 439) noted that Gregory describes this person as a man in woman’s clothing, not as a woman, but are we authorised to take that as any sort of basis for discussion, any more than we should take modern Republicans’ insistence that a transgendered person is a man ‘dressed up as a woman’ (Badash 2016)? Are we permitted to refer to the Poitevin as ‘he’ rather than ‘she’ on Gregory’s say-so? Whether the Poitevin lived her life as a woman or lived his life dressed as a woman is impossible to say. Gregory reports that, when questioned, the Poitevin said that s/he had made the decision to dress as a woman because s/he was incapable of manly work (opus virile) but we cannot know what to make of this because the whole text, above all its evident distinction between biological sex and material cultural gender, is soaked in a gendered discourse of power. One of the story’s attractions is that it is so undecidable at so many levels that trying to claim what Gregory, or the Poitevin, ‘really meant’ by any of the crucial phrases is quite pointless. In noting the story’s separation of the ‘man’ from the ‘clothing’ we are however presented with a difficult course to chart between the Scylla of essentialism and the Charybdis of endless, disabling relativism. How do we investigate agency or resistance to normative views? How might we identify the difference between a man who dressed as a woman and a biological male who lived as a woman?

If this person was born anatomically male, that clearly did not determine the construction of his/her gender. We do not know what was meant by the claimed incapacity to perform opus virile, or whether or how this related to her/his sexuality (Dailey 2015, p.000; Halsall forthcoming). Thorpe’s somewhat misleading translation, upon which Partner (1993) relies too heavily, suggests that (qua man) the Poitevin was impotent. If so, his gendering did not relate to his sexuality. Perhaps he was married; perhaps his sexuality had little bearing on his decision to marry and try to raise a family. Other sixth-century options visible in the story include gendering oneself as male, but refraining from all sexuality (as a monk or secular ecclesiastic), or as a married woman and similarly abstaining from sex (as a nun – married to Christ). Even what we might suppose was the normative Frankish family unit, with a mother, father and children, was not the sole vehicle for socialisation. The masculine child could leave his natal family and spend a long period either in another family household or in the overwhelmingly masculine society of a retinue (Halsall 2010a; 2010b).

The rebellious nuns’ accusation, that the Poitevin dressed to conceal his masculinity and thus work in a house of religious women (with no implications for his sexuality), adds yet a further dimension. If we accept the bishops’ decision that the accusation was groundless and trust the Poitevin’s own account of the reasons for his/her costume, another unanswerable question arises: if identity is an ‘enacted fantasy’, what was the mental image or ego-ideal in question? This story illustrates how anatomical sex, sexuality, gender, living arrangements, marriage and so on combine in a galaxy of historically-contingent ways.[2]
https://edgyhistorian.blogspot.com/search?q=gender
 
I don't know, the Pope seems very keen to condemn us whenever he gets the chance. He seems knowledgeable enough to hate us. He made references about people "choosing" their own gender, for instance, which seems broader than just transgender.

That's (as Traitorfish mentioned) part of the Vatican's opposition to what it considers "decadent liberal materialist". Gender being not some intrinsic individual attribute (which may be changed if it was mis-attributed) but rather something people can shed and change at will as they do clothes, according to what is "cool" at the moment. That, as far as I have observed, is the kind of theory the Vatican is attacking. And it is a theory that some people are proposing, one that will seem absurd to the vast majority of the world population, regardless of religion, time, or place. The general attitude regarding that will be that such a theory is, as the Monty Python put it in a movie, "symbolic of [their] struggle against reality".

Unfortunately, the modern church is embedded with social conservatism from the top.

And the pope is catholic. Just don't be a member of that religion. I don't care what they do so long as they are kept powerless from imposing their will on others.

Some of the conservatism advocated by the church, including "family", predates church, exists everywhere around the world, was independently formed in many different cultures. It's not about to go away, and being conservative on that filed is certainly a "safe bet" for the church.
 
Are you really so enamored of this "path of least resistance" social theory that you're willing to accept society moving in a clearly undesirable direction (the nullification of all interpersonal relationships by international capitalism) just to be on the winning side? We need to be having "should" conversations. Are we all just machines? Do you want to live in a culture that expects people to behave like machines?
It's happening, and its actively financing the values you've grown into and seek to further foster.

The top rated universities teach Marxian thought, produce the highest earners, and are donation fronts for massive hedge funds that own swaths of industry.

And Facebook is underwriting all of your preferences.

Surfin' tsunamis, Batman.
 
Well, fine, amend my phrasing accordingly. But the point stands, manorial society was not organised on the basis of extended kinship, but on the organisation of independent households, and it is those household rather than any extended kinship-group which represent the origin of the modern nuclear family.

But that origin was just as false then as it is now. "We don't need this "kinship." We don't need any "extended family." The societal structure will supply all those needs.

Except that it really won't. That could be the fatal flaw in not only manorial society, but the socialized capitalism society as well. It is built on a false premise.
 
It's happening, and its actively financing the values you've grown into and seek to further foster.

The top rated universities teach Marxian thought, produce the highest earners, and are donation fronts for massive hedge funds that own swaths of industry.

And Facebook is underwriting all of your preferences.

Surfin' tsunamis, Batman.

This is really something very different from substantive policy change of any kind.
 
I'm honestly puzzled by a lot that I read in this thread, and I thought nothing would puzzle me anymore on CFC.

So the "nuclear-family" is some sort of Anglo-Saxon invention to prevent race-mixing? What? How does this sort of statement pass even the most basic test of sanity, considering the nuclear family is much older than the concept of "race-mixing" itself?

Has it ever occurred to the OP that the nuclear family is a sort of organization that makes sense under certain development conditions, which is why it is found throughout the world in places of vastly different cultures (and "races")? Yes, our modern post-industrial societies don't "need" nuclear families as much as before, and it's certainly possible to have all sorts of familial arrangements nowadays, and surely the non-nuclear types will continue to grow, and there's nothing wrong with that.

But the Pope represents a religion, and a religion is nothing but traditions. He can't change doctrine every time there is a change in social sensibilities, or it would cease being a religion and turn into a charity or social club of sorts (like Anglicanism today). Nobody has to take the Pope seriously - I don't. But it would be weird if the Pope didn't defend Catholic doctrine and viewpoints.
 
The Book of Oogenesis

In the beginning were the gametes. And though there was sex, lo, there was no gender, and life was in balance.

And God said, "Let there be Sperm:" and some seeds did shrivel in size and grow cheap to make, and they did flood the market.

And God said, "Let there be Eggs:" and other seeds were afflicted by a plague of Sperm. And yea, few of them bore fruit, for Sperm brought no food for the zygote, and only the largest Eggs could make up the shortfall. And these grew yet larger in the fullness of time.

And God put the Eggs into a womb, and said, "Wait here: for thy bulk has made thee unwieldy, and Sperm must seek thee out in thy chambers. Henceforth shalt thou be fertilized internally." And it was so.

And God said to the gametes, "The fruit of thy fusion may abide in any place and take any shape. It may breathe air or water or the sulphurous muck of hydrothermal vents. But do not forget my one commandment unto you, which has not changed from the beginning of time: spread thy genes."

And thus did Sperm and Egg go into the world. And Sperm said, "I am cheap and plentiful, and if sowed abundantly I will surely fulfill God's plan. I shall forever seek out new mates and then abandon them when they are with child, for there are many wombs and little time."

But Egg said, "Lo, the burden of procreation weighs heavily upon me. I must carry flesh that is but half mine, gestate and feed it even when it leaves my chamber" (for by now many of Egg's bodies were warm of blood, and furry besides). "I can have but few children, and must devote myself to those, and protect them at every turn. And I will make Sperm help me, for he got me into this. And though he doth struggle at my side, I shall not let him stray, nor lie with my competitors."

And Sperm liked this not.

And God smiled, for His commandment had put Sperm and Egg at war with each other, even unto the day they made themselves obsolete.
 
But that origin was just as false then as it is now. "We don't need this "kinship." We don't need any "extended family." The societal structure will supply all those needs.

Except that it really won't. That could be the fatal flaw in not only manorial society, but the socialized capitalism society as well. It is built on a false premise.
Yet the fact remains, neither manorial society nor capitalist society are organised on the basis of extended kinship. That's not really a contentious statement, even if, I readily concede, it does not capture the full complexity of daily life.
 
A group of households structured in a particular way, one which didn't have anything to do with kinship, in which a kinship-relation was, typically speaking, emphatically denied in favour of a distinction between noble and non-noble lineage-groups.


That's not really true, though. The modern "extended family" is an array of aunts, uncles and cousins, who would not typically have been expected to live within a single household in the pre-modern period. By the early modern period, they wouldn't necessarily have lived within the same community; it wasn't at all uncommon for an extended family of siblings and cousins to be spread across a string of villages.

Point being, what's now called "the nuclear family" was well-entrenched in European society by the Early Modern Period. Capitalists streamlined it, arguably transformed it from a unit of production to a unit of reproduction, but it did not create it.

This is not at all how I learned it and I spent some time yesterday looking into this question. It appears what you're saying is correct for at least the English peasantry, but I'm not sure how things were in the rest of Europe and I still have the impression that among the aristocracy what I described was more common.

I may also be influenced by the slave South in which the planter classes definitely tended to live with their 'extended' families.
 
Fundamentally, transgenderism is no threat to Catholic teachings on gender: all it requires is the acknowledgement that sometimes people aren't born with all the parts lined up as they should be, and that's evident from the existence of physical and intellectual disabilities. The Church can, and I'm sure many people within it believe should, welcome trans individuals with welcome arms. Speaking for myself, I was raised by a Catholic mother who always sternly instructed me that trans people were simply "born in the wrong body", and whatever theoretical disputes we might have with that framing, it did allow for an uncomplicated reconciliation between Catholicism and trans acceptance.

It's also possible to view gender dysphoria as a mental disorder, which I think is far more palatable to the Abrahamic religions than some people literally having the wrong body from birth. Isn't a corollary of "God's benevolent plan" being happy with what you have?
 
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I'm honestly puzzled by a lot that I read in this thread, and I thought nothing would puzzle me anymore on CFC.

So the "nuclear-family" is some sort of Anglo-Saxon invention to prevent race-mixing? What? How does this sort of statement pass even the most basic test of sanity, considering the nuclear family is much older than the concept of "race-mixing" itself?

Has it ever occurred to the OP that the nuclear family is a sort of organization that makes sense under certain development conditions, which is why it is found throughout the world in places of vastly different cultures (and "races")? Yes, our modern post-industrial societies don't "need" nuclear families as much as before, and it's certainly possible to have all sorts of familial arrangements nowadays, and surely the non-nuclear types will continue to grow, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Damn, it's like I acknowledged the bolded but somehow it's supposed to invalidate my argument.

I think people are willfully interpreting my argument such that if I believe the nuclear family occurred "naturally" in European society, I can't argue that the institution of the modern nuclear family has a direct link to issues of race, class and sexuality through marriage. Appeal to the norm/authority -> if the nuclear family is natural, it must be wholly independent of social facts like racism, which somehow exist in an emotional, causal vacuum. Yeah, the nuclear family existed before racism and anti-miscegenation. That doesn't mean there isn't a relationship there.

EDIT: It's also worth noting that though modern racism is kind of a pervasive social and cultural presence with an agenda and a past that just because pre-modern cultures didn't have race theology doesn't mean they didn't have xenophobia and cultural practices designed to exclude subject peoples and outsiders from the circles and privileges of the upper classes
 
You present "marriage" as having no definitive meaning, but just a "place holder" that can mean anything to any one who uses the concept. Especially those in power who can enforce a certain definition on the concept.
 
Damn, it's like I acknowledged the bolded but somehow it's supposed to invalidate my argument.

I think people are willfully interpreting my argument such that if I believe the nuclear family occurred "naturally" in European society, I can't argue that the institution of the modern nuclear family has a direct link to issues of race, class and sexuality through marriage. Appeal to the norm/authority -> if the nuclear family is natural, it must be wholly independent of social facts like racism, which somehow exist in an emotional, causal vacuum. Yeah, the nuclear family existed before racism and anti-miscegenation. That doesn't mean there isn't a relationship there.

EDIT: It's also worth noting that though modern racism is kind of a pervasive social and cultural presence with an agenda and a past that just because pre-modern cultures didn't have race theology doesn't mean they didn't have xenophobia and cultural practices designed to exclude subject peoples and outsiders from the circles and privileges of the upper classes

The problem is that there is a much easier and more logical explanation to the prevalence of the nuclear family than some race or class conspiracy: it made sense. So your theory fails Occam's Razor.

There is a genuinely interesting debate to be had on why and when some "staples" of the institution of marriage in the West emerged, like an obsession with female virginity that was prevalent until recently. I remember reading in an old French history book that this was a custom of the Germanic tribes, where the men were constantly absent from their homes soldiering, so marrying a virgin was a way to guarantee (or at least increase the chance) that the husband is indeed the father. Apparently in Galia prior to the Frankish conquest female virginity was not that much of a big deal. So you see it's not some sort of conspiracy to prevent race-mixing (more than one thousand years before people started caring about this) or whatever, but rather a custom that evolved due to the nature of the time. This increased push for virginity (and to control female sexuality) was probably also the case in other non-Western societies where it was common for men to be frequently away from home.

I don't understand how race came into this subject, or Anglo-Saxons, or American colonists.
 
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