Question Evolution! 15 questions evolutionists cannot adequately answer

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One of the things I don't understand about ID proponents is why they'd want an intelligent designer. Once God -- and let's call a spade a spade, they mean Yahweh -- has, at any point, mucked with the genetic code of organisms, He (again, capital H here) has opened Pandora's Box. Now every virus that kills people, every bacteria that has become drug-resistant, has acquired these traits because God wanted them to. Ergo, God is causing a lot of suffering in the world. Theologically, it runs straight into the problem of evil. The only even superficially passable way to get around it is for God to not be an interventionist, or in other words, Intelligent Design to not be true.
 
One of the things I don't understand about ID proponents is why they'd want an intelligent designer. Once God -- and let's call a spade a spade, they mean Yahweh -- has, at any point, mucked with the genetic code of organisms, He (again, capital H here) has opened Pandora's Box. Now every virus that kills people, every bacteria that has become drug-resistant, has acquired these traits because God wanted them to. Ergo, God is causing a lot of suffering in the world. Theologically, it runs straight into the problem of evil. The only even superficially passable way to get around it is for God to not be an interventionist, or in other words, Intelligent Design to not be true.

yea direct design implies a very cruel God. Even if you argue there needs to be population control, there are kinder ways to go about it than smallpox or ebola.
 
warpus
Look, the problem is, it's not the question of religion only.
The subjectiveness of morality is affecting the crime rates as well.
No jokes.
The religious people could be wrong on many personal topics, but when coming to a crime action, if we're talking about true believers, they will always remember "the eye that sees and the ear that hears", which stops a true believer from sinning/criming.
I'm NOT saying it works 100% (not even 50%) - but at least there's chance.
For a non-believer, all what matters is, how shrew must he be to not get caught.
And, please, don't bring that "a good man would never do it" point.
Cause I'm not talking about such "good men", I'm talking about criminally inclined people.
For them, if there's no Higher Authority that can't be bribed or evaded, it's only a matter of time until they end up doing crimes.
I know for sure that close-to-none of "non-believers" (aka atheists of all sorts and levels, or rather "scienteists") will agree with me, but the point is valid, just compare the crime rates of ANY religion and that of the secular.
If you don't know that there's G-d, nothing stops you from ignoring other people.
And your consciousness is not less fond of bribes than any typical advocate...

According to the FBI, about 0.209% of the population in prison consider themselves atheists as of 1997.

In 2001, approximately 14.2% of the people identified themselves as being part of no particular religion, which means no strict dogma of any kind.

So if we consider that there is no such thing as higher morality, which there isn't, why don't we all commit crimes and go to jail, eh?

And why do the religious people commit crimes although they believe that they will go to hell because of it?

You might argue that atheists and agnosctics are better at covering their tracks than the religious are due to being better educated, which would be a major shooting yourself in the foot.

Oh, and you say that atheists have no reason not to sin. Isn't that why we have laws? I would expect laws to be more of a deterrent to atheists than it is for the religious. If we participate in a crime and get caught, there is no way for us to gain "forgiveness" of any kind. There is no life after death. Let's say that we get 7 years in Prison. In 7 years, a religious person may consider his or her sin be forgiven after 7 years of good deeds, penance, prayers, and whatnot. It sucks, of course. You regret doing it every moment of the day, but you have hopes that you will be forgiven eventually.

We, oh hell no. That's 7 years of our life gone. Poof. There's no way to get it back. No hope of redemption after death. There is no such thing as forgiveness for us. If there can be forgiveness, it is by obtaining one from the ones hurt by our crimes directly. And the loss of time, due to prison, is perhaps one of the worst things that you can do to an atheist or an agnosctic.

You say that your point is valid. Do you deny that my point is valid as well? After all, there can be only one truth for you. You claim that religion acts as a deterrent because those who follow religion knows that they will be judged after death. I say that criminal justice system and the laws of society acts as the deterrent for all parties, espescially the atheists and the agnosctics.
 
Can't believe we're being trolled to this extent by a Jewish creationist nutcase. I'm out of this thread.
 
Seon
The problem lies in the so-called "praying thief".
It's an idea used when discussing BELIEF vs TRUST.
Belief & Trust

Belief is not enough—you need Trust.
A believer can be a thief and a murderer.
Trust in G‑d changes the way you live.
More:
Consider the Talmudic thief who kneels before G‑d before burglarizing, praying for success. Isn’t such behavior oxymoronic? If he believes in G‑d, as his prayer suggests, how can he engage in an act clearly forbidden by G‑d, and, worse yet, pray for success?

Because he has faith (emunah) but lacks trust (bitachon).

While in the mind of our devout thief, G‑d exists somewhere, somehow, his personal life must go on. Bread must be put on the table.

To the trustee in G‑d, however, G‑d is intimately involved in our lives. Far from being removed, His presence is manifest and His interest in us engaged. Therefore, it is His blessing, not our efforts, we rely upon for success.


If trusting in G‑d sounds like an easy exercise, it has been grossly oversimplified.

There are those who argue that to trust in a Higher Being and His Providence is to take life’s easy path, much like using crutches instead of walking on one’s own. But real trust demands herculean effort and commitment. For to truly place one’s lot in the hands of G‑d, not in word or deed alone, but in mind and heart as well, is as counterintuitive as bungee-jumping.

Your life is on the line. And you don’t physically see the lifeline which holds you from behind (or above) as the world barrels past you at lightning speed.

That can’t be easy.

This point can be further illustrated by a parable:

Long before the entertainment industry boomed, tightrope walking was a common form of amusement and recreation.

Once, a world-famous master of the sport visited a particular region. Word spread quickly, and many people turned up for the show. All was quiet as the master nimbly climbed the tree from which he would begin his dangerous trek.

But just before beginning his routine he called out: “Who here believes I can make it across safely?”

The crowd roared their affirmation. Again he asked the question and was greeted by the same response.

He then pulled out a wheelbarrow from between the branches and asked, less boisterously, “Which of you is willing to get inside the wheelbarrow as I cross?”

You could hear a pin drop.

Faith is the roaring response of the crowd; trust is climbing into the wheelbarrow.
To sum up:
Lots of people say they believe in G-d, but when actually given the challenge of proving it, they FAIL.
On the other hand, there are many "atheists" that are actually "moral people" (though they forget it being a direct result of their upbringing in a culture based on originally religious moral system).
But their "morality" comes easily into a contradiction of "I want vs I'm allowed".
Why?
Cause the only factor that holds them back is the subjective "morality", in other words, themselves.
As I heard before (as a joke, but it reflects the real problem): "It's forbidden, but if you REALLY want it..."
Knowing (REALLY KNOWING, a hard job to do) that you are accountable to G-d AND that He cares and provides for you, is a shortest way to become the most "moral" citizen.
Because then you realize that "what is mine is mine, and what is yours is yours" and I don't need it at all.
Or I would have been given it by G-d to begin with.
A bit repetitive yet important:
Do you know the main reason why people commit crimes?
Cause they are not content with what they already have and they want to have things that are not theirs.
But if I know that I'm constantly given EVERYTHING what I need by G-d, Who knows everything (definitely including my needs) and cares about everyone (regardless of one's "religiousness", G-d loves everyone, the problem starts when we decline the offer), then I'd never want anything I don't have already.
This doesn't mean not to make money or buy new stuff.
Rather, this means not being jealous of someone else's belongings.
And that's TRUST.:D
 
This is wildly off-topic. More anti-creationism, less Jewish scripture!
 
The biggest off-topic is to "off-topic" G-d.
But people "troll" the more the better.

1000 school pupils become 100 university students.
100 university students become 10 professors.
10 professors become 1 Nobel Prize winner.
You need to educate a 1000 dummies in order to get a break-through 1.
And that's exactly what I'm doing.
It's your choice to stay a dummy or choose to become different. :goodjob:

Moderator Action: Trolling, by your own admission apparently.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
"Different", i.e. wrong.

About Sabbath:

Quite clear, isn't it???
No, it ain't, mainly because I refuse to read what scripture and religious teachers have conveniently prepared for you. Could you just once use your own words, preferably without too many line breaks and capitalizations?

It's my intent to become a biology teacher. Think about how I feel after threads like this :(
Think about this way: if you weren't there, maybe some biology student who tried to be "different" in the civ2 sense would be teaching your pupils instead, ruining their understanding of scientific method forever.
 
The biggest off-topic is to "off-topic" G-d.
But people "troll" the more the better.

1000 school pupils become 100 university students.
100 university students become 10 professors.
10 professors become 1 Nobel Prize winner.
You need to educate a 1000 dummies in order to get a break-through 1.
And that's exactly what I'm doing.
It's your choice to stay a dummy or choose to become different. :goodjob:

If it's any consolation, I don't think you are a troll.

I think you have actually displayed the highest capabilities of your version of thought processes for the world to see. Given us your best...

And in the future, when I think of creationists, I will think of you.
 
Leoreth
The exact problem with "anti-religionists":
"Give me YOUR opinion, not what any pre-made text says."
I'm sorry, but that's the way people LEARN!
Do you base your science knowledge on YOUR opinion only???
Or you'd rather READ countless books???
Demanding "my own opinion" is equivalent to "I don't care what you say, so make it easier to say it's bs, by attributing it to being your own words, rather than something widely known".

bathsheba
Sarcasm is dripping...
The difference between me and a troll, I'm not attacking others' opinions, I'm explaining mine.
 
Leoreth
The exact problem with "anti-religionists":
"Give me YOUR opinion, not what any pre-made text says."
I'm sorry, but that's the way people LEARN!
Do you base your science knowledge on YOUR opinion only???
Or you'd rather READ countless books???
Demanding "my own opinion" is equivalent to "I don't care what you say, so make it easier to say it's bs, by attributing it to being your own words, rather than something widely known".
That's not the case. Being able to say something in your own words shows you actually understand what it means. Everyone can post something other sources have prepared for them. You're of course free to add them as an accompanying source, but on their own, all they show is that you're either unable or unwilling to formulate their content by yourself.

Edit: Oh, and something else: I'm not antireligious, just areligious. But you don't care much about using words the right way anyway, I guess.
 
Leoreth
I really wonder what makes you think that if I re-word the weekly mentioning of the Sabbath in my words, it will have any better effect on your opinion.
OK, let's try then.
"Every Friday night in every observant Jewish family starts with proclaiming the holiness of incoming Sabbath day (Jewish dates start from the evening). While doing so, the Creation in six days, the rest on the seventh and some other historically important points are mentioned. Thus each week each Jewish family is reminded that the world was created."
Something like that.
Now, was it ANY different from simply quoting the text???:lol:
I'd say, it gave LESS info than the original prayer text.
So why would I use MY words to give you LESS info???
 
OK, let's try then.
"Every Friday night in every observant Jewish family starts with proclaiming the holiness of incoming Sabbath day (Jewish dates start from the evening). While doing so, the Creation in six days, the rest on the seventh and some other historically important points are mentioned. Thus each week each Jewish family is reminded that the world was created."
Something like that.
Well, yeah, because now I see that you didn't address my question at all. I just wondered whether an answer was hidden somewhere in your quotes and I didn't see it. Doesn't seem to be the case.
 
blah blah
I am happy you have found happiness in your faith and believe in a G-d you like and can worship him as you like.

However, if you remove the religious texts (which for the most part are incredible (as in not credible) works of fiction about amazing stories of myth and legend) from evidence that a G-d exists, there is nothing. Therefore, science needed to find other ways to answer its questions about how things came to be.

What they did is pondered, then thought of reasons that became theories, then sought evidence to support those theories and then many theories became laws. After almost 2,000 years of repression, science, only now is starting to get a small window of light on knowledge of things and we still have long way to go ...

Now like you, you are happy in your belief in G-d, I too am happy knowing that we will never fully understand everything in my lifetime or 1,000 lifetimes. Science's job is not to have an answer now for life, the universe, and everything (= 42), just a method of finding the answers. It is a continuing journey with no real end in sight.
 
Leoreth
This question??? said:
Quote: Originally Posted by civ2
Not to mention that (as I already said) evolution is pretty incompatible with some religious ideas, starting the holiness seventh day of CREATION, which is applied WEEKLY.


I know Judaism is seriously invested into the concept of Sabbath, but are you invested into it because it has an inherent value to you, or because what happened during (your alleged) creation?

I seriously don't get that reasoning. How does the matter of how life was created thousands of years ago influence what the Sabbath means to you today, on a personal level?
I did answer the second part - seemed more important.
The idea of Sabbath being the SEVENTH day and HOLY/SPECIAL goes back directly to the first WEEK of Creation.
Evolution 100% implies it wasn't the case (cause it speaks of millions of years).
Therefore either Sabbath or evolution, never both.
How Sabbath is related to me and my feelings actually IS off-topic.
But to say it shortly:
It's the day for the family and spiritual rest, along with physical of course, unlike a typical "weekend" that so often ends up as the day of planning the next week.
On Sabbath you must feel as if there's no tomorrow, in a good way.
A great practice for those who can't get their job out of their heads even on Sundays!

Ziggy
Erm...
At least I'm not doing it on purpose of trolling...:blush:
 
It's the day for the family and spiritual rest, along with physical of course, unlike a typical "weekend" that so often ends up as the day of planning the next week.
On Sabbath you must feel as if there's no tomorrow, in a good way.
A great practice for those who can't get their job out of their heads even on Sundays!
This is what I was getting at. Does Sabbath lose this meaning for you only because the reason it's celebrated is a myth?
 
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