Quitting Is Not a Bad Thing

Commodore

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At almost any office in America you’ll meet at least one disgruntled employee who talks about quitting or finding a new job but never does. Now companies like Amazon and Zappos are taking notice and offering incentives to get those unhappy employees out of the office for good. Zappos offers any employee who’s not interested in staying $2,000 to leave and Amazon offers fulfillment center employees up to $5,000 to ditch their jobs if they’re dissatisfied.

It sounds counterintuitive… why would a company pay an employee to leave? As Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos puts it in his shareholder letter, “the goal is to encourage folks to take a moment and think about what they really want. In the long run, an employee staying somewhere they don't want to be isn't healthy for the employee or the company.” Companies with engaged employees simply make more money. Gallup found companies that have 9.3 engaged employees for every disengaged employee make 147% more in earnings per share than competitors.

It’s also good for the employee. There’s a stigma around quitting that doesn’t actually make sense, according to Steven Levitt and Stephen Dubner, the guys behind the popular Freakonomics blog and podcast and authors of the book “Think Like a Freak”.

“We are trained to think that quitting is morally a bad thing and that we’re bad people when we quit,” says Dubner. “For most of us we’re working on a job or a project or a relationship where we’ve put in a lot of sunk costs and think ‘therefore we need to keep it going or we’re failures and we’re miserable.’ ...There’s no shame in quitting because you can’t get to the next good success if you’re not willing to abandon today’s dud.”

“The worst failure is not to quit when you should have quit,” says Levitt. “Because then you’re stuck there for the rest of your life… I think the happy people I know quit a lot because when they stop having fun they start doing something else.”

I have been saying this for several years now. Quitting your job does not make you a terrible person, but the corporate culture in the Western World seems to have drilled it into peoples' heads that if you quit your job you are weak-willed and will never be successful in your life. According to this article, it looks like there is some pushback against this idea from economists and some very large companies. They say that an unhappy employee is bad for both the company and the unhappy employee. Now this always seemed like a no-brainer to me, but apparently big business conventional wisdom has said otherwise until now.

I think this is a positive trend as it will encourage people to find something to do that makes them truly happy and allows them to be a productive citizen. So what does CFC think? Is quitting your job a good thing if you are unhappy (keep in mind we are only talking about the act of quitting your job, not the manner in which you quit)? Or is conventional thinking correct in stating that a person is a weak-willed failure if they quit, even if they are unhappy?

Link to article
 
I wouldn't quit unless I had another job in the works. Being unemployed in this environment is terrible and I don't want to starve.

Assuming the job market is reasonable or I have another thing lined up, I would say quitting is a good thing. No reason to torture yourself in a bad job.
 
I wouldn't quit unless I had another job in the works. Being unemployed in this environment is terrible and I don't want to starve.

Assuming the job market is reasonable or I have another thing lined up, I would say quitting is a good thing. No reason to torture yourself in a bad job.

Well that's why Amazon is paying unhappy employees $5,000 to quit. That way the company rids itself of an unproductive employee and the unhappy employee has enough money to last until he/she can find another job. I'm actually hoping this practice catches on and becomes standard business practice. Of course I would like to see the amount you get paid to quit as a percentage of your monthly wages/salary, rather than a fixed amount.
 
I read somewhere America has like the worst job satisfaction where many people actively despise the job they do.
 
I read somewhere America has like the worst job satisfaction where many people actively despise the job they do.

That's because the average American worker is underpaid, overworked, and has almost no way to protect themselves from being "laid-off" for reasons outside of their control. This only used to be the case for low-level workers, but now this situation is a reality for even highly skilled workers and management. Pretty much the only people in the US that have any kind of job stability are the self-employed and entrepreneurs.
 
but the corporate culture in the Western World seems to have drilled it into peoples' heads that if you quit your job you are weak-willed and will never be successful in your life.

Is this really the case? Seems I've been hearing so much about the virtues of voluntary job flexibility.
 
Is this really the case? Seems I've been hearing so much about the virtues of voluntary job flexibility.

Recently there seems to be a change towards job flexibility, but up until maybe 5-10 years ago the attitude towards "quitters" was that they were disloyal, dishonest, immoral turdbags that don't deserve a job in the first place. This is still the case with small to medium sized businesses. They want complete loyalty from you but do nothing to reward that loyalty.
 
I can't imagine anybody being happy doing the actual work at Amazon.com. And they certainly don't get $5K to quit.

Worse than Wal-Mart: Amazon’s sick brutality and secret history of ruthlessly intimidating workers

Machines measured whether the packers were meeting their targets for output per hour and whether the finished packages met their targets for weight and so had been packed “the one best way.” But alongside these digital controls there was a team of Taylor’s “functional foremen,” overseers in the full nineteenth-century sense of the term, watching the employees every second to ensure that there was no “time theft,” in the language of Walmart. On the packing lines there were six such foremen, one known in Amazonspeak as a “coworker” and above him five “leads,” whose collective task was to make sure that the line kept moving. Workers would be reprimanded for speaking to one another or for pausing to catch their breath (Verschnaufpause) after an especially tough packing job.

The functional foreman would record how often the packers went to the bathroom and, if they had not gone to the bathroom nearest the line, why not. The student packer also noticed how, in the manner of Jeremy Bentham’s nineteenth-century panopticon, the architecture of the depot was geared to make surveillance easier, with a bridge positioned at the end of the workstation where an overseer could stand and look down on his wards. However, the task of the depot managers and supervisors was not simply to fight time theft and keep the line moving but also to find ways of making it move still faster. Sometimes this was done using the classic methods of Scientific Management, but at other times higher targets for output were simply proclaimed by management, in the manner of the Soviet workplace during the Stalin era.

Onetto in his lecture describes in detail how Amazon’s present-day scientific managers go about achieving speedup. They observe the line, create a detailed “process map” of its workings, and then return to the line to look for evidence of waste, or Muda, in the language of the Toyota system. They then draw up a new process map, along with a new and faster “time and motion” regime for the employees. Amazon even brings in veterans of lean production from Toyota itself, whom Onetto describes with some relish as “insultants,” not consultants: “They are really not nice. . . . [T]hey’re samurais, the real last samurais, the guys from the Toyota plants.” But as often as not, higher output targets are declared by Amazon management without explanation or warning, and employees who cannot make the cut are fired. At Amazon’s Allentown depot, Mark Zweifel, twenty-two, worked on the receiving line, “unloading inventory boxes, scanning bar codes and loading products into totes.” After working six months at Amazon, he was told, without warning or explanation, that his target rates for packages had doubled from 250 units per hour to 500.

Zweifel was able to make the pace, but he saw older workers who could not and were “getting written up a lot” and most of whom were fired. A temporary employee at the same warehouse, in his fifties, worked ten hours a day as a picker, taking items from bins and delivering them to the shelves. He would walk thirteen to fifteen miles daily. He was told he had to pick 1,200 items in a ten-hour shift, or 1 item every thirty seconds. He had to get down on his hands and knees 250 to 300 times a day to do this. He got written up for not working fast enough, and when he was fired only three of the one hundred temporary workers hired with him had survived.

At the Allentown warehouse, Stephen Dallal, also a “picker,” found that his output targets increased the longer he worked at the warehouse, doubling after six months. “It started with 75 pieces an hour, then 100 pieces an hour. Then 150 pieces an hour. They just got faster and faster.” He too was written up for not meeting his targets and was fired.27 At the Seattle warehouse where the writer Vanessa Veselka worked as an underground union organizer, an American Stakhnovism pervaded the depot. When she was on the line as a packer and her output slipped, the “lead” was on to her with “I need more from you today. We’re trying to hit 14,000 over these next few hours.”

Beyond this poisonous mixture of Taylorism and Stakhnovism, laced with twenty-first-century IT, there is, in Amazon’s treatment of its employees, a pervasive culture of meanness and mistrust that sits ill with its moralizing about care and trust—for customers, but not for the employees. So, for example, the company forces its employees to go through scanning checkpoints when both entering and leaving the depots, to guard against theft, and sets up checkpoints within the depot, which employees must stand in line to clear before entering the cafeteria, leading to what Amazon’s German employees call Pausenklau (break theft), shrinking the employee’s lunch break from thirty to twenty minutes, when they barely have time to eat their meal.

Other examples include providing UK employees with cheap, ill-fitting boots that gave them blisters; relying on employment agencies to hire temporary workers whom Amazon can pay less, avoid paying them benefits, and fire them virtually at will; and, in a notorious case, relying on a security firm with alleged neo-Nazi connections that, hired by an employment agency working for Amazon, intimidated temporary workers lodged in a company dormitory near Amazon’s depot at Bad Hersfeld, Germany, with guards entering their rooms without permission at all times of the day and night. These practices were exposed in a television documentary shown on the German channel ARD in February 2013.

Perhaps the biggest scandal in Amazon’s recent history took place at its Allentown, Pennsylvania, center during the summer of 2011. The scandal was the subject of a prizewinning series in the Allentown newspaper, the Morning Call, by its reporter Spencer Soper. The series revealed the lengths Amazon was prepared to go to keep costs down and output high and yielded a singular image of Amazon’s ruthlessness—ambulances stationed on hot days at the Amazon center to take employees suffering from heat stroke to the hospital. Despite the summer weather, there was no air-conditioning in the depot, and Amazon refused to let fresh air circulate by opening loading doors at either end of the depot—for fear of theft. Inside the plant there was no slackening of the pace, even as temperatures rose to more than 100 degrees.

On June 2, 2011, a warehouse employee contacted the US Occupational Safety and Health Administration to report that the heat index had reached 102 degrees in the warehouse and that fifteen workers had collapsed. On June 10 OSHA received a message on its complaints hotline from an emergency room doctor at the Lehigh Valley Hospital: “I’d like to report an unsafe environment with an Amazon facility in Fogelsville. . . . Several patients have come in the last couple of days with heat related injuries.”

On July 25, with temperatures in the depot reaching 110 degrees, a security guard reported to OSHA that Amazon was refusing to open garage doors to help air circulate and that he had seen two pregnant women taken to a nursing station. Calls to the local ambulance service became so frequent that for five hot days in June and July, ambulances and paramedics were stationed all day at the depot. Commenting on these developments, Vickie Mortimer, general manager of the warehouse, insisted that “the safety and welfare of our employees is our number-one priority at Amazon, and as general manager I take that responsibility seriously.” To this end, “Amazon brought 2,000 cooling bandannas which were given to every employee, and those in the dock/trailer yard received cooling vests.”

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Jeff Bezoz is one of the greatest exploiters who has ever lived. He is the quintessential jerk who will literally do anything to become even richer.
 
I can't imagine anybody being happy doing the actual work at Amazon.com. And they certainly don't get $5K to quit.

Worse than Wal-Mart: Amazon’s sick brutality and secret history of ruthlessly intimidating workers



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Jeff Bezoz is one of the greatest exploiters who has ever lived. He is the quintessential jerk who will literally do anything to become even richer.

Oh believe me I know how Amazon works. I worked there for about 2 weeks before quitting because they were trying to force me to do work that I couldn't do because of my disability (which I disclosed to them before I was hired).

Anyway, the 5k for quitting seems to be a new policy and is still in the testing phase, so it's going to be pretty hard to find anyone who has actually received such benefits yet. Plus, whether Amazon actually does it or not doesn't change the fact that I think it's a good idea and should become a standard business practice.
 
That's because the average American worker is underpaid, overworked, and has almost no way to protect themselves from being "laid-off" for reasons outside of their control. This only used to be the case for low-level workers, but now this situation is a reality for even highly skilled workers and management. Pretty much the only people in the US that have any kind of job stability are the self-employed and entrepreneurs.
And that is a small portion of the self-employed and entrepreneurs.
 
I have been saying this for several years now. Quitting your job does not make you a terrible person,

Agreed. At least I would like to think so. My career is 16 years old and this is my sixth job, and I am overdue for my next one.

but the corporate culture in the Western World seems to have drilled it into peoples' heads that if you quit your job you are weak-willed and will never be successful in your life.

I blame the baby boom generation for this one. They seem to still believe in holding one job their entire career. On the other side, they are older, and much more limited in choices.

They are also in the way, hogging all the best positions and refusing to retire.

I think this is a positive trend as it will encourage people to find something to do that makes them truly happy and allows them to be a productive citizen. So what does CFC think?

Work should be engaging and fulfilling and blah, blah, blah. You will be spending 40+ hours a week at it, plus lunch hour, plus time going to and from work.

There should be a balance between work and life.



Is quitting your job a good thing if you are unhappy (keep in mind we are only talking about the act of quitting your job, not the manner in which you quit)? Or is conventional thinking correct in stating that a person is a weak-willed failure if they quit, even if they are unhappy?

I wouldn't quit unless I had another job in the works. Being unemployed in this environment is terrible and I don't want to starve.

This.

Speaking of this and work / life environment, please remind me of the very first thing I am supposed to do in the event that I get laid off so that I do not make the same mistake again.
 
Holy crap, I'm never buying from Amazon again. That's just horrible. I thought that kind of stuff only happened in China.

Anyway, I think the belief that quitting your job is bad comes from many decades ago. You're supposed to study, graduate from college, get a nice job at a good company and spend the rest of your career working there and then retire to your white-fenced home in the suburbs. I agree that if you're miserable at what your doing you should quit and try something new. I was recently laid off and it's terrifying to think about the future, but now that I don't have a job, I'm able to re-evaluate my life and think what I want to do next with a certain degree of freedom.
 
I wouldn't quit unless I had another job in the works. Being unemployed in this environment is terrible and I don't want to starve.

Assuming the job market is reasonable or I have another thing lined up, I would say quitting is a good thing. No reason to torture yourself in a bad job.

This is pretty sound. I'd add that the only time quitting really makes logical sense is if you are being told by your boss that you will be fired, or you strongly feel you are about to be fire. Being terminated (fired) is the most awkward thing to have on a resume or interview, excepting having done jail time / been convicted of some crime.

It's really not too difficult to do some internet job hunting and a phone interview a day while working full time, and quitting won't do much.

Of course, if you have profound reasons for quitting that you really would love to bring up during future job interviews. Well then go ahead...quit. But generally quitting is not going to be helpful for anything other than adding employment gaps, which aren't usually helpful in job hunting.


And in all honesty, if you had a pretty decent job, I'm skeptical that a $5K payoff for quitting will be any better than collecting unemployment after a lay-off. I'd just keep job hunting / apply to school, and savor a decent pay-check. If you get fired, there's a chance of collecting unemployment, but virtually no chance for quitting.
 
I have been saying this for several years now. Quitting your job does not make you a terrible person, but the corporate culture in the Western World seems to have drilled it into peoples' heads that if you quit your job you are weak-willed and will never be successful in your life.

What a load of huey. People quit their job all the time. It's called moving on or a career change and if you can you certainly should do it instead of staying on in a job that no longer satisfies you.
 
All I have to offer to this thread is this piece. Corey Robin does a lot of incisive writing on conservative thought and the erosion of worker's rights in the US.
 
Well that's why Amazon is paying unhappy employees $5,000 to quit. That way the company rids itself of an unproductive employee and the unhappy employee has enough money to last until he/she can find another job. I'm actually hoping this practice catches on and becomes standard business practice. Of course I would like to see the amount you get paid to quit as a percentage of your monthly wages/salary, rather than a fixed amount.

$5000 is a terrible deal to quit, and Amazon is a terrible company to work for.

http://gawker.com/i-do-not-know-one-person-who-is-happy-at-amazon-1572478351
http://gawker.com/working-at-amazon-is-a-soul-crushing-experience-1573522379
http://gawker.com/at-amazon-even-the-part-timers-are-miserable-1576194529
etc.

Forma posted an article too, but mine are mostly about corporate non-warehouse employees, who you might expect to get a better deal.
 
I wouldn't take $5k to quit, but I probably earn more than the people that's being offered to. I'd quit for 6 months' salary. But then I actually quite like my job.

Quitting is not a bad thing at all. Any actual supporter of the free market knows this. People sticking with jobs that are bad for them is a suboptimal allocation of resources, a market failure that needs to be corrected. Incentives to quit are a small part of this. The bigger picture includes a decent social safety net, free universal healthcare, free education, and so on, so that people are not as dependent on a steady income in the short term. These things are all vital in ensuring a functioning market for jobs -- not to mention a society that people actually enjoy living in.

Conservatives are terrible at defending the free market.
 
What a load of huey. People quit their job all the time. It's called moving on or a career change and if you can you certainly should do it instead of staying on in a job that no longer satisfies you.

That's what I thought too...Quitting jobs when something better comes along or you are fed up enough with it is the norm, not the exception.
 
Yeah I have to say, the most obnoxiously "bootstraps" guys I've known have to their credit been great advocates of quitting your job and getting a higher paying one. You know the type, "give me more money or I'll quit".
 
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