RB7 - Winter Wonderland

Dwip

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Wherein, having clicked preview, I am redirected to one of those black screens with ads, which coincidentally obliterates my post and messes up my attachment. I am annoyed by this. But not as annoyed as I would be if I didn't obsessively use Wordpad.

Anyway.

[0] 250 BC - Well, our military situation looks ok to me, but then, I'm that guy who runs city defense with warriors until longbows or infantry, or mech infantry, in a couple cases.

We are Mansa the Resourceless. Considering the vast cheater swathes of land AI Mansa always gets in my games, this is actually more amusing than distressing. We'll see what our galley finds for us.

[1] 225 BC - Turn avoid growth back on at Timbuktu until we can get an aqueduct or something going.

[2] 200 BC - Math comes in, and I start on Code of Laws, pretty much because it's right there and I felt like it. I was also very tempted by Compass and Currency. Choices. Choices. Settler completes in Djenne, and I send it up for Yellow Dot.

[3] 175 BC - Gao is founded on Yellow Dot, and starts a Skirm. Founding Gao lets us see that the barbs have archers (duh), and over that NE mountain is a pretty nice city site that's probably going to be Mongol.

[4] 150 BC - The new song "I've Been Workin' On the Road" becomes a smash hit throughout Mali.

[5] 125 BC - Exhausted by partying like it's 129 BC, everyone does a lot of nothing.

[6] 100 BC - Minin' and farmin' and slavin' our lives away.

[7] 75 BC - I sure do miss Civ 2's Colossus movie. And I know you're all tired of hearing that. Timbuktu starts a Granary, with the idea of finishing it, turning growth back on, and rushing for the Lighthouse because we can. Djenne goes Lighthouse->Settler.

[8] 50 BC - Kumbi Galley->Granary.

Thar's gold in them thar hills! (Which is pretty appropriate for us as a civ, I suppose).

[9] 25 BC - I'd rather be sailing.

IBT - Parthenon is FIDAL.

[10] 1 AD - Timbuktu Granary->Lighthouse in 9, grows in 1.

Our galley finds this:

 

Sirian

Designer, Mohawk Games
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My internet was out for a day, so I'm running a little behind.

Should have my turn up by late tonight though.


- Sirian
 

LKendter

Exterminate, exterminate, exterminate!!!
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Sirian said:
My internet was out for a day, so I'm running a little behind.

lurker's comment:
Now that is a pain I can understand. My current access for the most part is via Wifi that has become witry a couple of times.
I know one day I missed some threads...

 

Griselda

Realms Beyond
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364
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Don't worry if you have other plans for the night, though. :) There's other things we can do with the extra one second we get today.

:xmascheers: :newyear:
 

57%

Complete
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Sirian said:
My internet was out for a day, so I'm running a little behind.

Should have my turn up by late tonight though.


- Sirian


Trying to be the first post of 2006? :lol:
 

Borisio

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Hamilton, NZ
IMO Sirian was the first to post in 2006. Although it might just be wacky NZ time messing me up. :crazyeye:
 

Sirian

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IT 1AD: One of the most interesting things about Civ4 is that while you can go in almost any direction, you cannot go in every direction. Reading the reports of things we've accomplished over the last few rounds was very exciting. However, when I opened the save and see all the things we haven't done... The picture looked a lot less rosy.

Certainly, we might be able to get the Great Lighthouse, as Dwip suggested, and coast to the finish line with (more or less) a 5CC empire. That really isn't what I had in mind for this game, though.

The Lighthouse probably would be a good choice here anyway, but I set it aside in the hope that it was not too late to expand our territory.


75AD: We were never in the circumnavigation race. ... WTF happened here?



A couple of turns later, I saw the explanation. The Mongol WORK BOAT came sailing past us on its return trip home. Arrgh! I hoped that we would eventually get to a place (in Civ4) where barbarians would pose enough threat to scouting work boats to more or less prevent this, but NOT to shut down Galley-based exploration. Unfortunately, to do that, we would have needed another unit type, a ship that posed little threat to a Galley but would take out unescorted fishing boats. ... Or storms, or Sharks, or something! Something, anything, to find that sweet middle ground between needing Caravels to scout the map and being able to do with Work Boats. :rolleyes:

Anyway... Khan's got the movement bonus, which is... not good! :crazyeye:

In fact, it's very very bad.

125AD: You are looking at a major strategic setback.



"What can wait should wait."
I didn't mean to imply that we should go for the Colossus immediately!
My fault.
Part of me just thought it went without saying that we needed to expand a bit more.

I thought we'd have a little more cushion than this, though.
Khan is taking to the seas while he still has unsettled (good!) land on his main continent.

I tried to shut him down by closing our borders, but it was no help.
There was another way around!



There's his circumnavigating work boat!


175AD: In the north, we find Crabs, Furs and IRON. Which Khan is ignoring for the moment.



200AD: There's Copper and Whales in the south:



225AD: Unfortunately, we wont' be touching that Copper.



Khan planted his flag in the absolute middle of the island!
HE CLAIMED THE WHOLE BLOODY THING WITH ONE SETTLER!
 

Sirian

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You can't plant your flag willy-nilly next to a Creative civ.

It's not like we can attack, either.
Their cities get more cultural defense.
They have Keshiks, we have bubkis.

WE cannot plant our flag wherever and expect the AI to honor it, but...
...for Khan, wherever he plants his flag, we more or less have to accept it.
It would cost us too much to dispute it at the moment.

There are other opportunities out there, though. Here's hoping we take advantage.


250AD: We pop a Prophet. I could have built a shrine, but decided to grab Theology, giving us our fifth religion.



We now also have access to Theocracy civic. Use as useful. (We are spiritual!)
Please note any Civics changes prominently, however.


DOTMAPS

The situation in the north:



Red Dot would secure the Iron and the Fur. It's a crappy city site, but a good resource colony site.
Thus it may be available for a while, if the Mongols are not hungry for that Iron.

Green Dot would get the extra Clams and Gold without clashing too much with Khan's borders.
Would also give us a Canal to the North, which may be very useful.

Yellow Dot would get the Furs and Crabs but is too close to Khan.
Orange is also too close, and would clash with Green Dot.

My hope would be that would could get Green and later Red Dots.
We'd have to get moving on it, though!

The Capital is the only good settler builder!
Kumbi Saleh now has barracks and could train the units.
Djenne needs to grow, a lot. And catch up on infrastructure.


Down south, you can see how Creative Khan is dominating that island.



White Dot might still get us the Whale, though. Especially if more seafood in range of it.

Dark Gray Dot is a possibility as a fishing village.

We do not want to plant on Khan's island, though. (The other dots).


Out West, I have a settler party heading for (probably) Pink Dot.



You may have to adjust the plan, depending on what you find over there.

There's a Fish at blue circle, which can only be used by one city or the other.
The pairing there is probably Orange + SouthBlue, or Yellow+NorthBlue.
Or we may not end up settling on that small island at all.
We need to explore more!

We could stand to own another couple of galleys by the time my turn comes around again.


Anyway, losing that island was a blow, but there are other opportunities.

Lots of interesting choices to make in the next few rounds.

I got Granary and Barracks done in Kumbi Saleh, so it's good for training troops.


Jaffa is out, so afpunk is up for another round if he can play in the next 48 hours.
Griselda is on deck.


- Sirian
 

afpunk

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Joined
Nov 19, 2005
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Location
State College, PA
I've got it. I just did turns on BGZ02 and CTIV-2, and have turns for LK112 pending as well (Before this one). I can play these turns tomorrow at some point and definitely get them posted by tomorrow night. However, if Griselda would prefer to go before this, and can, I would have no problem being skipped or swapped. I'll check back before I play to see what is decided. :)
 

afpunk

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State College, PA
250&275AD

Zzzzzz...

300AD

I come to a point where I have to make a big decision regarding the settler. I move the skirmisher to the SE plains hill to see the most surrounding terrain, and I encounter iron. Since this is one of the most vital resources, and in a better location then the far red dot of Sirians post. I decide to make this city on the spot the game suggests. Its off the fresh water, but for the iron, I think its worth it.



325AD

Timbuktu finishes its settler. I decide to put it on a library. It'll take just 5 turns, and have an instant yield of 5 beakers a turn. Kumbi Saleh finishes its skirmisher and I move it onto a forge.

350AD

I found Walata on the previously mentioned space and start it on an immediate obelisk. We want to secure the iron as soon as reasonable. Also, I will see what I can do as to getting a worker over here.

375AD

We have met Peter, it appears by having his Axeman enter the radius of the Chinese Buddhist city.
A settler pair is loaded on a galley, ready to head for the green dot. I got moving on it, so hopefully we'll get it.

400AD

UGH! Spoke too soon. IBT looks like Khan plopped a city right between the clams and crabs.



With no better place on the horizon, I drop the pair off to follow the road down to the last spot on our mainland.

Currency comes in. I decide to head for alphabet. As it stands, we have a couple of allies, and tech trading could be very handy.

425AD

Zzzzzzzz...

450AD

We meet Caesar.



:lol: :lol:

Peter asks us to cancel our deals with the Germans. I consider, but decline. Timbuktu finishes its library. I want to start on another settler, but notice the Great Lighthouse will only take 9 turns. Given that all of our cities are coastal cities, and this wonder will likely be built soon, I start production on it.
Gao finishes its Granary, and starts on a workboat.

475AD

Peter comes asking for Open Borders, I grant them.
Khan switches to Judaism. This leaves an interesting situation. We should probably convert as well with that AI penetration.




500AD

The Great Lighthouse is built in a distant land. This is unfortunate for us, but even if I started it directly after the settler, we still wouldn't have gotten it. I temporarily set the production in Timbuktu to a Jewish Missionary. If we decide to go with the switch, we'll need someone else who can make missionaries besides our best settler town.


Recommendations for the next player:

Continue scouting for a good place for another city. We have a galley near the southeast island and the German border. Our other galley is transporting a worker with a skirmisher guard down to Walate, chop/mine it up.

Check over the religion situation. If you believe there to be more benefits than setbacks to converting to Judaism, do so.

Don't research Calender until Walata manages its first border expansion.

Have fun and good luck! :)
 

Griselda

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RB7 - from 500 AD

Priority- scouting! We've built right to the edge of the fog, and with AI borders visible on all sides, there are probably only a few good spots left! I can't see well enough even to know what spots to prioritize for settlers. Priorities for scouting seem to be west and SW, plus there might be something useful where the galley is in the SE. I also wonder what might be past Apache in the NW.

With Buddhism, we are getting organized religion bonus in Timbuktu, Kumbi, and Djenne. Judaism has 16% of the world compared to Buddhism's 15%. I see both in Kublai's lands, plus his capitol is Hindu. Is it possible that Kublai just switched on an AI's request and is likely to switch back? I don't think it's in our best interest to follow (yet). If anything, we should build Buddhist missionaries and send them to Mongolia. Of course, that would leave Rome and Germany upset with us. I don't know that we have the resources to build Missionaries of any kind at the moment.

IT - 500AD
- With Djenne and Kumbi working on forges and us low on galleys, I don't swap Timbuktu to a settler, although it's tempting. Since we're at negative health, I figure that an Aqueduct would help us build settlers faster when we're ready, so I start that. I swap tiles to grow in 5, aqueduct in 6, so that we can be size 10, with -1 health, when we start settlers (as opposed to current size 9, -2). That also allows us to put another coastal tile into play, and since we're paying for the Colossus, we might as well get use out of it!

We should be in full scouting-and-settler-factory mode by the end of my round. I just hope that's fast enough!

I set Gao to grow. It only adds one turn to the workboat, but will net +2 food each turn while we're working.

BT - Kumbi completes forge, starts galley, due in 3. We get 60 gold from our Great Lighthouse partial build.

(1) 520 AD - Find more iron and some fish down by Fred's land. It's awfully close to Frankfurt, though. Send Skirmisher to Nagini, thinking that will be the next pickup point.

With another galley due in 3, I unload the skirmisher and worker and convert the current galley to exploration. The new galley can be our ferry.

BT- Before we even get the Alphabet complete popup, Fred and Khan call us up wanting to give us Calendar. But, you see sirs, we're working on our last Obelisk. Care to wait? None of the AI has Compass, so I try researching that any maybe trading for calendar after we have the iron in sight.

(2) 540 AD Scouting

(3) 560 AD

BT - Kumbi galley - skirmisher. Walata obelisk - lighthouse. Buddhism spreads to Cologne.

(4) 580 AD - Second Skirmisher by iron city decides to explore on foot. Will come back and cover worker if needed.

BT - Djenne forge - aqueduct. Kumbi Skirmisher - galley, although they also need a 'duct. Gao work boat - lighthouse

(5) 600 AD - Souting Mongolia now. That site to the far south I mentioned earlier can grab marble, clams, and iron. I bet it won't be around for long!

We meet Elizabeth, by sailing into her borders to the west! It looks like she's not friends with Khan. We sign open borders so we can keep sailing.

BT - Timbuktu aqueduct - settler

(6) 620 AD - Trade extra fish to Elizabeth for wheat. With the extra health we can grow in Djenne sooner, and so put the duct on hold for a rax.

BT - Kumbi galley - skirmisher

(7) 640 AD I'm really at a loss for worker moves here. It seems like we're getting a good amount of commerce from the coast, there's not much we can do about the food situation, we can use the forest shields and health, and won't be able to build plantations for 7 more turns. Am I missing something obvious here?

There are crabs in the tundra south of Walata.

BT - Rome calls and asks for Open borders. I accept. Germany wants silk for gold, and I also accept. Niani gets Christianity.

(8) 660 AD

BT - Germany wants us to take Judaism, and I turn him down. Compass in - we can probably also trade for Monarchy, so I go for machinery. Kumbi skirmisher - duct. Walata becomes Confucian.

(9) 680 AD - Might as well trade for Monarchy, even if we're waiting on calendar. All the AI have calendar for trade, all but Fred and Peter also have Monarchy.

China needs monotheism, code of laws, metal casting, and compass.

Khan needs code of laws, theology, currency, metal casting, and compass.


Caesar needs code of laws, theology, metal casting, and compass.

Elizabeth is in the same boad as Khan. She also has drama, but won't trade it. China has construction, in red.

I decide that we need to be buddies with Khan. I consider offering code of laws, since it's the closest in beakers, but some of the AI have currency, so I see what I can work out. He won't give us gold in addition unless I throw in code of laws, which I'm unwilling to do, and he is dying to give us calendar, which I don't want, so I take a straight monarchy-currency trade. Maybe he will like us now.

I adopt Hereditary Rule.

BT - Timbuktu settler - settler. Khan sails a galley right up to our coast. He also sends a Keshik south of Samarquand, but of course he can't reach us from there.

(10) 700 AD - I'm kind of thinking that the prime space for our settler is to the SE, by Sirian's dark grey dot that could pull in two fish and get us closer to the marble/iron/clams. This is a fairly recent discovery, and all of the units are geared towards a city to the west, on the two-tile island that would fit our borders nicely, but not bring us any closer to anything but Rome.

Since where we decide to settle will affect this, the settler is in Timbuktu unmoved. You can send him towards Niani if you want to settle west, or pick up a skirmisher (the galley is right there, ready) and head east, grabbing the settler on the way somewhere. There's another galley that just came through Djenne canal that you can use, too. I kind of think we should send two SE, then settle that island (southblue on Sirian's map) with the third. I don't know if that's realistic, though, and I would hate to lose an island that close to home. We might try for one of the SE sites plus the close site, but that pretty much guarantees we won't get both SE spots if we don't act quickly.

Another galley of ours is just to the west of the fog in Rome's borders. I'd like to see what's up past Apache with it. You may have other ideas, though.

Anyway, good luck to you!
 

friskymike

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392
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Lurker comment:
Sirian said:
I hoped that we would eventually get to a place (in Civ4) where barbarians would pose enough threat to scouting work boats to more or less prevent this, but NOT to shut down Galley-based exploration. Unfortunately, to do that, we would have needed another unit type, a ship that posed little threat to a Galley but would take out unescorted fishing boats. ... Or storms, or Sharks, or something! Something, anything, to find that sweet middle ground between needing Caravels to scout the map and being able to do with Work Boats. :rolleyes:
Why not have made it so that Work Boats cannot leave their civ's cultural boundaries? They are only fishermen types anyway, they would be too scared to go sailing far from home, and their purpose is to grab resources within cultural boundaries.
 

Sirian

Designer, Mohawk Games
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friskymike said:
Lurker comment:

Why not have made it so that Work Boats cannot leave their civ's cultural boundaries? They are only fishermen types anyway, they would be too scared to go sailing far from home, and their purpose is to grab resources within cultural boundaries.

Being able to produce work boats in one city and sail them around to a nearby city is an intended part of the design. That would mostly be lost if the ships could not leave their borders.

I'm not even opposed to the work boats scouting. However, we have threats out there on the land, and they are well balanced: animals (early), barbarian soldiers of increasing ferocity (later). We need something like that at sea, in my view, but it needs to do its job.

Barbarian galleys were not the answer, either. They turn your Galley exploration in to a dice roll, with too much riding on one throw of the dice. On land, there are terrain features that you can use to keep your scouting units alive. At sea, there are no such features, no gameplay there (yet?) to give players something to do to better their odds.


Dwip, you're up now. :)


Gris: Obtaining Calendar will not cancel existing Obelisk builds. They will still finish! You can't start new ones, though, or mess with the build queue too much (because if you remove it from the queue, you can't get it back.) Also, BE CAREFUL with signing Open Borders with everybody. We don't want to be signing deals with the "worst enemy" of civs we want to be pals with, as they will only come and ask us to cancel those agreements, and then if we do we have worsened relations and cost ourselves some opportunities. I would have considered switching to Judaism from the German request. (We could switch back in five turns, and without any major loss of "we love our brothers in the faith", as that would mostly restore when we switched back.) And it would have been useful to get the religion scouting, as well as the relations boost. We've got some interesting choices to make in regard to religion and trying to set up the diplomacy to our advantage.


- Sirian
 

Dwip

Warlord
Joined
May 5, 2003
Messages
272
See it. Will have it back tonight or (more likely) tomorrow night.
 

Sirian

Designer, Mohawk Games
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Messages
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Location
Pennsylvania, USA
Griselda said:
Do the obelisks still provide culture, though, if you build them after calendar?

Yes.

However, they cost 30s for 1cpt, while Theaters cost 50s for 3cpt. If running Slavery, it's often no big deal to whip out a Theater immediately. Even if not running slavery, it's a better deal for first build. Obelisks just tide you over. The only time I'd still build one when I had Theater access is at a city that will be in a long border war over disputable tiles. Every point helps!


- Sirian
 

bpierfy

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Dec 14, 2005
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Eastern PA
Being able to produce work boats in one city and sail them around to a nearby city is an intended part of the design. That would mostly be lost if the ships could not leave their borders.

I'm not even opposed to the work boats scouting. However, we have threats out there on the land, and they are well balanced: animals (early), barbarian soldiers of increasing ferocity (later). We need something like that at sea, in my view, but it needs to do its job.

Barbarian galleys were not the answer, either. They turn your Galley exploration in to a dice roll, with too much riding on one throw of the dice. On land, there are terrain features that you can use to keep your scouting units alive. At sea, there are no such features, no gameplay there (yet?) to give players something to do to better their odds.

Well this is my first post (and its as a lurker)!

I thought I give my suggestion for boats - what about "trade lanes" that initially only exist along the coast between your own cities, but have to be researched, built, or negotiated later between continents (over oceans) or between civs. Of course any boat can leave the trade lane but fishing boats would be more prone to disaster. Add to this techs that allow for safe passage and/or barbarians (pirates really) that can hijack lanes. Regular ships could get bonuses for open waters to prevent impossible exploration.

A very unrefined idea but I'm sure someone can run with it. Sorry about the lurker comment but I couldn't pass it up :)
 

·Imhotep·

Legendary Builder
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Nov 16, 2005
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Munich, Germany
bpierfy said:
Well this is my first post (and its as a lurker)!

I thought I give my suggestion for boats - what about "trade lanes" that initially only exist along the coast between your own cities, but have to be researched, built, or negotiated later between continents (over oceans) or between civs. Of course any boat can leave the trade lane but fishing boats would be more prone to disaster. Add to this techs that allow for safe passage and/or barbarians (pirates really) that can hijack lanes. Regular ships could get bonuses for open waters to prevent impossible exploration.

A very unrefined idea but I'm sure someone can run with it. Sorry about the lurker comment but I couldn't pass it up :)

Well, these trade lanes were part of Civilization - Call to Power, which I've been playing long time after switching to Civ IV (best choice I've ever made on gaming :D ). These trade lanes were always annoying to me 'cause they could get pillaged so easily, especially when they reached over sea. You just needed a crappy galley and could do serious harm to your opponents economy. Pirates were doing it anyway and all the time. You had no defense against that, you just could limit to trade lanes on your continent. So I think that's not the right solution to this worker boat circumnavigation stuff. Maybe one should implement a new unit as strong or a little weaker than a galley for that purpose (Pirates ?). Galleys should then get a 25% bonus against the Pirate and therefore succeed most of the time, whereas Pirates get a 25% bonus against work boats. That would suffice...

Greetings,

Lord Timon
 

Borisio

Chieftain
Joined
Nov 13, 2005
Messages
7
Location
Hamilton, NZ
IMHO the answer is having a sea animal unit like you have lions and bears on land. But too make it possible to safely travel in galley it could be it sea equivilent of a Wolf. With 1 strength it's not gonna kill a galley but you can't outrun with a work boat. And it wouldn't come within your cultural borders so you can be safe about your non-scouting workboats. That would effectively stop workboat circumnavigation but would endanger your stay-at-home workboats.

That's just my view on things. There might be something this would really stuff up.
 
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