Red Diamond Threads Revisited

[Birdjaguar]

Hello OT Regulars,

It has been well over our 90 day "let's see what happens" period in which we tried out the Red Diamond (RD) concept. We generated lots of discussion.
I've spoilered the original OP below.

The original idea had two goals: to generate better discussions in RD threads and to allow more fun in other threads. I hope we have succeeded in allowing more "fun". From my moderator perspective it seems so. The RD threads are another matter. I think our goal to have improved discussion was probably mistaken. It is quite clear that most posters really didn't really want whatever we envisioned as improved discussion as seen by the dearth of RD threads started in the past few months. Based on public and staff feedback I think the RD idea was successful in that it has pointed to a better way to use the concept. So here we go.

We will allow users to select the RD icon to indicate that they would like stricter moderation in their thread. The goal is to provide a distinct platform for those who want moderators to pay closer attention to what is said and how it is said in that particular thread. For moderators it will mean that in these threads they will be vigilant for any posting that disrupts the civility of the discussion. They will deal harshly with the offenders.This does not mean that non RD threads will be a free for all of spam, trolling and flaming. All regular rules will always apply throughout the forum, but moderators will be able to show more latitude in how they deal with non RD threads.

As before moderators will be free to double up on points and quickly ban users who engage in trolling, flaming, and personal attacks that detract from the conversation in an RD designated thread. The focus will be on the "bad stuff' and not the "clever or off topic, but harmless". We will not try to force a particular level of discussion, just try harder to stop those who persist in trolling, flaming, and personal attacks.

Moderators will use their own discretion about which penalty is most appropriate to apply; Moderators may use a poster’s infraction history or recent contribution to the RD threads to influence which penalty is most appropriate.

Questions You may have:

Who chooses whether or not a thread has the RD status?
You do. Moderators will not add an RD icon without your permission, but if a frivolous thread is started as RD, moderators may remove it without asking permission. Serial threads should not be given RD status.

Can I ask for a review of an infraction earned in these threads?
Yes you can, but keep in mind that we have set high standards for these threads and warned everyone. I’m not sure it will be easy to convince the supermods you have been wronged. Frivolous appeals will be automatically dismissed.

Do infraction points earned in these threads get added to those points earned in other threads or subforums for calculating bans?
Yes they do. All active points are totaled to determine if a poster has crossed a ban threshold. In fact, those posters who frequently mis-post in these threads will find that their active point total will rapidly increase to ban level.

Can we report posts in these threads?
Yes you can, and you are greatly encouraged to do so. Such reports will follow the same path for review as those currently reported.

Can RD and non RD threads coexist on the same topic?
Yes they can. If this creates issues in the future, we may revisit this.

Where do I find that “red diamond”?
When you start a thread, look at the icons shown at the bottom of the page under the tag box and select the red diamond.

Spoiler original concept :

This thread is to announce a change in how we handle discussion threads in the Off Topic forum. This change is also a test that will run for the next couple of months after which we will evaluate its success.

Beginning today we will allow specific threads to be designated for serious discussion and in which more stringent moderation will apply. Our goal is to provide a distinct platform for those who want to engage in civil conversation on politics, religion, current events, the economy etc. Rather than create a new subforum for serious discussions, we will allow these threads to mix with the many less serious OT polls, “Ask a…”, “What’s for breakfast?”, and “Snap! Krackle! Pop” (cereal serial) threads. These “more serious” discussions will be designated by this icon:

The red diamond icon will be the public indicator that a thread is being moderated for improved discussion.

Currently many OT discussions are marred by trolling, both subtle and blatant; personal attacks; tiresome bickering that never gets anywhere; non responsiveness to questions asked; unsupported claims; and argument styles that are little more than “I’m right and you are wrong!”

Goal #1: Better discussions
By having a very clear identifier for the discussion threads, both moderators and posters will know what is expected of them. For posters: contribute civilly to the discussion without trolling, flaming, personal attacks and junk posts that don’t add to the conversation. Higher quality posts will be expected. For moderators it will mean that in these threads they will be vigilant for any posting that disrupts the civility of the discussion. They will deal harshly with the offenders.

Goal #2: More fun in the other threads
While all the forum rules will still apply, we hope that moderators will be able to take a more “relaxed” view on posts in the less serious threads of OT. For example, where a perhaps humorous one line retort without additional content would earn an infraction in a red diamond thread, it could be overlooked elsewhere. Flaming, trolling and inappropriate content will still not be allowed, but the “bump and grind” of clever interaction might well be.

The Red Diamond (RD) Expectations

• The “Red Diamond” label can be selected by the person that opens the thread; an OT mod can reverse that designation if they feel it is inappropriate for the topic. Likewise, an OT mod can apply the designation if they feel it is more appropriate for the topic.
• The Opening Post must be sufficient to stimulate discussion and must contain content written by the thread starter that explains the content and what is to be discussed. The word “Discuss” alone is insufficient.
• All posts must contribute to or extend the discussion through good content or cogent questions. For those prone to a humorous one liner, you better be prepared to follow them with good content that begins on the next line.
• Civility will rule and no personal attacks allowed. It will be your responsibility to find the right words to get your point across in a civil and kind manner. If you cannot do so, don’t say it.
• Some of you are excellent at skating the very edges of what is trolling and what is not. Many times we have given you the benefit of the doubt. In the RD threads, we will go the other way and infract such borderline posting. Don’t ask for clear cut guidelines on this. There aren’t any. If you have a history of such posts and infractions, please don’t bring that style of posting into these threads.

For some of you this kind of posting may be difficult and will call for a radical change in style. The penalties for failure will be severe, so please make the effort or don’t post. Mods will have tools to let you know you’ve posted poorly:

• Double points every day of the week, but no prizes, free play or cash back; just quicker bans.
• Impromptu bans from OT for 24 or 48 hours. Mods will be able to instantly ban posters from OT for 24 or 48 hours.

Moderators will use their own discretion about which penalty is most appropriate to apply; Moderators may use a poster’s infraction history or recent contribution to the RD threads to influence which penalty is most appropriate.

How will this all work?

To begin we will start slow. We will limit the number of RD threads for the first few week or so until we see how it unfolds and how much attention we have to pay to each. For the first week or so we will not infract for near miss posts that fail. We will edit in a warning. But that leniency will end quickly, and if you are repeatedly failing to heed the moderator warnings, you may find yourself infracted. We will try to post comments and warnings to let you know what we think of those posts that are detracting from the discussion.

Since this is as new to us as it is to you, until further notice we will approve all RD threads. To do so we will open a thread where you will post your OP and we will approve it there. Once approved, you may then open the topic in a thread of its own. Please include the red diamond icon to identify your discussion. We expect that this approval first step will disappear once are all familiar with how things go and then you may just open an RD thread just like any other thread. When two threads, one RD and one not, are on the same topic, our general rule will be to lock the non RD one unless we feel that the topic is a poor one for a good discussion.

During the initial “practice week” please learn from the mod tag warnings and comments. They will be the guidelines for what will be infracted later. We hope you will help us make this a success by posting responsibly.

Thanks for making Off Topic a great place to hang out.

Questions You may have:

Can I start an old style OT discussion thread that does not have all these new restrictions?
For now you can. Soon though we will require that all “serious” discussion threads (determined by the mods) fall under the Red Diamond moniker and those who start a political discussion or economics discussion etc without it, will find that the thread is closed or we have added the designation and moderated it to the higher standards. We do not know how long that transition will take.

Can I ask for a review of an infraction earned in these threads?
Yes you can, but keep in mind that we have set high standards for these threads and warned everyone. I’m not sure it will be easy to convince the supermods you have been wronged. Frivolous appeals will be automatically dismissed.

Do infraction points earned in these threads get added to those points earned in other threads or subforums for calculating bans?
Yes they do. All active points are totaled to determine if a poster has crossed a ban threshold. In fact, those posters who frequently mis-post in these threads will find that their active point total will rapidly increase to ban level.

Can we report posts in these threads?
Yes you can, and you are greatly encouraged to do so. Such reports will follow the same path for review as those currently reported.

Why must new threads be approved?
This is a temporary measure. We expect that the approval process will end in a couple of weeks. We are using it to control how many threads get started for now and to help establish clear standards for what is considered a good OP. This will be new for us too and by limiting how many threads we have to monitor more closely, we can do a better job and work out any kinks that crop up. Once we are comfortable with everything, you will be able to launch new RD threads without approval just by using the “red diamond” icon.

Can I use the “red diamond” icon for other threads I start?
No. it is only for the serious discussion threads. If you use it inappropriately, we will take you to the woodshed with malice aforethought.

Where do I find that “red diamond”?
When you start a thread, look at the icons shown at the bottom of the page under the tag box and select the red diamond.

Your comments and questions are welcome.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

Just wondering what about quotewars? Is that one of the things more moderated in RD? I tend to find them annoying to pick apart the post and argue the semantics of seperate parts or whatnot. Some quote-picking is ok but when its repetitive it makes me stop reading.

 

[illram]

Just wondering what about quotewars? Is that one of the things more moderated in RD?

Yes.

 

[NickyJ]

Question: Can a spam this topic instead?

Kidding. Real question: Is it still preferred that users who create RD topics ask a mod before posting the topic?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Question: Can a spam this topic instead?

Kidding. Real question: Is it still preferred that users who create RD topics ask a mod before posting the topic?

No need to at all. Just do it.

 

[Takhisis]

Hello OT Regulars,

It has been well over our 90 day "let's see what happens" period in which we tried out the Red Diamond (RD) concept. We generated lots of discussion.
I've spoilered the original OP below.

The original idea had two goals: to generate better discussions in RD threads and to allow more fun in other threads. I hope we have succeeded in allowing more "fun". From my moderator perspective it seems so. The RD threads are another matter. I think our goal to have improved discussion was probably mistaken. It is quite clear that most posters really didn't really want whatever we envisioned as improved discussion as seen by the dearth of RD threads started in the past few months. Based on public and staff feedback I think the RD idea was successful in that it has pointed to a better way to use the concept. So here we go.

<snip>

Your comments and questions are welcome.

No, no, no, RD was and is not successful. You haven't generated that many 'better' discussions and there is no 'increased' 'fun'. It hasn't had that much of an effect tbh.

There's only one RD tread other than this one on Page 1 of the forum, another one on Page 2 and four more on Page 3.

 

[Synobun]

No, no, no, RD was and is not successful. You haven't generated that many 'better' discussions and there is no 'increased' 'fun'. It hasn't had that much of an effect tbh.

There's only one RD tread other than this one on Page 1 of the forum, another one on Page 2 and four more on Page 3.

My thread has a red diamond But the poll overrides the icon.

 

[Camikaze]

@Takhisis- How do you define 'success'? Does it mean 'a lot of active RD threads at all times'? If so, then yeah, you would consider to have failed it's original purpose, which was to have all threads on serious topics as RD threads. Or is success just allowing an avenue for that different level of discussion?

 

[Kyriakos]

Sounds good BirdJaguar. You can red-diamond all of my threads, so that the trolls can down-vote them with more vigilance and stupidity

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

I have a suggestion: I know some people were complaining about the RD meaning "serious" discussion when it's applied to certain types of threads. So my suggestion would be to change "serious" to "mature discussion" -- e.g. act like an adult.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I have a suggestion: I know some people were complaining about the RD meaning "serious" discussion when it's applied to certain types of threads. So my suggestion would be to change "serious" to "mature discussion" -- e.g. act like an adult.

We are not going that direction. RD now means "moderate more closely". WE are not going to try and figure out whether or not a discussion is serious, mature. It is far easier to figure out whose trolling than who is being immature.

 

[Defiant47]

 

[Dreadnought]

Bird, I applaud you for these changes; they seem to be much more concrete than the previous thread.

 

[Kozmos]

I'm glad to see my last post with its questions in the previous thread before it was locked was deleted and ignored like it never existed.

 

[Camikaze]

The other thread hasn't been locked. Your posts weren't deleted. And you didn't ask any questions.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I did lock it for a day or two, then unlocked it and unstickied it. It sank like a stone.

 

[MjM]

Sounds good BirdJaguar. You can red-diamond all of my threads, so that the trolls can down-vote them with more vigilance and stupidity

Maybe make better/more discussable threads and they won't get downvoted?

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

Here is something I noticed: If you make an RD poll, the little x icon covers up the RD and a lot of people don't really see the diamond on the OP. Is there a way to fix that?

 

[Takhisis]

@Takhisis- How do you define 'success'? Does it mean 'a lot of active RD threads at all times'? If so, then yeah, you would consider to have failed it's original purpose, which was to have all threads on serious topics as RD threads. Or is success just allowing an avenue for that different level of discussion?

The former more than the latter.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

I think RD might be a matter of... If someone makes an RD thread its saying to the mod "you'd better keep an eye on this as I think it might be a bit trolly or flamy."