[RD] Russia invades Ukraine: Part II

[red_elk]

Ironically, there are Russians who recently write in social networks something like
"WTH, I've always been against Putin and even supported Ukraine, and now I'm getting so much hatred simply because I'm a Russian. May be Putin was right and they are indeed our enemies?"
Whatever remained of liberal opposition is pretty much destroyed. Communists seem to be alive and well though.

 

[Yeekim]

It seems like 7000+ is the Ukrainian government's number

These are confirmed numbers, i.e victims we know of, from areas liberated from Russia or held by Ukraine.
Who knows how many more hundreds or thousands have perished in e.g. Mariupol alone.

On a more positive note, reportedly Huawei has joined boycott on Russia. EDIT: That last bit is doubtful.

 

[thetrooper]

These are confirmed numbers, i.e victims we know of, from areas liberated from Russia or held by Ukraine.
Who knows how many more hundreds or thousands have perished in e.g. Mariupol alone.

On a more positive note, reportedly Huawei has joined boycott on Russia.

Really? And what do you mean by boycott?

 

[Ferocitus]

View attachment 624552
It seems like 7000+ is the Ukrainian government's number
I start to wonder where the 10000+ number is. Maybe in some trash ~news~toiletpaper?
It seems like 7000+ is the benchmark of urban warfare in a month tho.
-> implying that there wasn't a systemic scheme to murder Ukrainian civilians without any reason.

It also doesn't include 14,000 civilian deaths due to Ukraine shelling Donbas for about 8 years.
Human Rights Watch and the UN expressed concern at the genocide being committed there by Ukraine.
If Ukraine supporters claim there were Russian troops in Donbas all those years, then those numbers should
be included in the total for the war so far.

And if Putin is a dictator waging war on his own, then sanctions aimed at hurting all Russian people contravenes
the Geneva convention against collective punishment. Why didn't the media kicked up a storm about that
"war crime" the moment it was committed?

Maybe the whole truth will come out one day.

 

[red_elk]

World bank predicts Russia's economy to shrink by 11.2% this year, Europe and Central Asia by 4.1%. Ukraine ~45%
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...onomy-gdp-russia-invasion-world-bank-forecast

 

[Ferocitus]

Not surprising that someone who repeats long-debunked lies like these is a "former" colonel.

Given that he was a UN representative just after the fall of the USSR it's more likely he has retired.

There is a massive body of evidence and testimony to the contrary, including from Russians themselves.

And so many testimonies and even official NATO intelligence documents that say there weren't.

Maybe the whole truth will come out one day, when the victors write the "correct" history.

 

[Ferocitus]

World bank predicts Russia's economy to shrink by 11.2% this year, Europe and Central Asia by 4.1%. Ukraine ~45%
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...onomy-gdp-russia-invasion-world-bank-forecast

But Ukraine will get a lot of loans from their allies. (I hope it's not a "debt trap".)
Biden is meeting with India's Modi today IIRC. That could have interesting consequences
for Russia's economy if the US offers India cheap oil and gas, or if they threaten India
into abandoning their plans to take more from Russia.

 

[thetrooper]

World bank predicts Russia's economy to shrink by 11.2% this year, Europe and Central Asia by 4.1%. Ukraine ~45%
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...onomy-gdp-russia-invasion-world-bank-forecast

This is going to be a great decade; pandemic, wars and recession.

 

[Akka]

It also doesn't include 14,000 civilian deaths due to Ukraine shelling Donbas for about 8 years.

It's not 14000 civilians killed in Donbass, it's 14000 total deaths due to the war in Donbass, only 3000 being civilians. And I highly doubt you made this mistake accidentally.

 

[uppi]

Ironically, there are Russians who recently write in social networks something like
"WTH, I've always been against Putin and even supported Ukraine, and now I'm getting so much hatred simply because I'm a Russian. May be Putin was right and they are indeed our enemies?"
Whatever remained of liberal opposition is pretty much destroyed. Communists seem to be alive and well though.

Europe is now the enemy of Russia, but that was not the Europeans' choice, that was Putin's choice. We would have been happy to be Russia's friends, but Putin took away that option.

 

[Remorseless1]

It's not 14000 civilians killed in Donbass, it's 14000 total deaths due to the war in Donbass, only 3000 being civilians. And I highly doubt you made this mistake accidentally.

It's also 1500 civilians (UN estimate) killed in a little more than one month compared to 3000 killed over the course of 96 months. And that's just civilians. Add in military deaths and it would exceed the 14K killed in Donbas over the past 8 years.

Remind me, when did Ukraine threaten Russia with military action or some type of economic warfare? Or was Ukraine's attempts to bring the Donbas back under Ukrainian control? Imagine that, a brutal war launched by the Putinists while using lies to justify the slaughter and destruction.

 

[IgrOK[SU]]

It's also 1500 civilians (UN estimate)

This number is ridiculous. In just Mariupol died a lot more. It can easily be 10x there... and that's only one city...

 

[REDY]

Ironically, there are Russians who recently write in social networks something like
"WTH, I've always been against Putin and even supported Ukraine, and now I'm getting so much hatred simply because I'm a Russian. May be Putin was right and they are indeed our enemies?"
Whatever remained of liberal opposition is pretty much destroyed. Communists seem to be alive and well though.

There are five stages of grief and most people are not in the same stage. This is not pun against Russian people, we experience it too.

 

[IgrOK[SU]]

Wow, they actually didn't even count Mariupol...

"OHCHR believes that the actual figures are considerably higher, as the receipt of information from some locations where intense hostilities have been going on has been delayed and many reports are still pending corroboration. This concerns, for example, Mariupol (Donetsk region), Izium (Kharkiv region), Popasna (Luhansk region), and Borodianka (Kyiv region), where there are allegations of numerous civilian casualties. These figures are being further corroborated and are not included in the above statistics."

They didn't count Borodianka, etc.

What they even count then? https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2022/04/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-10-april-2022

 

[bobbobbybobbob]

When the US goes to another country to rape and it's for the greater good. When another country does the same it is bullying. Must be nice to have free pass to be a war criminal. I have no bias in this. Spineless brats spewing out whatever propaganda that's been showed down their throat.
Moderator Action: This is a thread about Russia's invasion Ukraine. It is a [RD] thread which means we are striving for a serious on topic discussion. Your post does not fit with either. You may start a thread about how terrible and hypocritical US foreign policy is, but this thread is not the place for such a discussion. I can even move this post to a new thread to start such a conversation.

In any case for this thread, please stay on topic. Thanks. Birdjaguar.

 

[Akka]

This number is ridiculous. In just Mariupol died a lot more. It can easily be 10x there... and that's only one city...

This game about numbers (both Ukrainian civilians dead and Donbass deads) was already played, by the same posters, and all these very same points were already raised. Don't think they are honest. Russia has shown that it's basing its whole communication on blatant lies and twists repeated enough at every corner, and you can notice that its supporters happily join in the same fashion.

 

[Ajidica]

Human Rights Watch and the UN expressed concern at the genocide being committed there by Ukraine.

Source? I remember looking over some of the UN reports in the past and they expressed concerns over the ongoing violence, but it was of a distinct 'both-sides' nature; indiscriminate use of artillery and a failure to withdraw heavy equipment from ceasefire lines. If there was a UN report saying Ukraine was engaged in genocidal actions, I certainly missed it and I would have expected Moscow would be waving that document around.

 

[keli]

Ironically, there are Russians who recently write in social networks something like
"WTH, I've always been against Putin and even supported Ukraine, and now I'm getting so much hatred simply because I'm a Russian. May be Putin was right and they are indeed our enemies?"
Whatever remained of liberal opposition is pretty much destroyed. Communists seem to be alive and well though.

Yeah, anyone who doesn’t support Z is Russophobic, got it. It’s a righteous war…
I still can’t understand why Russia is this insecure.

 

[Zardnaar]

Source? I remember looking over some of the UN reports in the past and they expressed concerns over the ongoing violence, but it was of a distinct 'both-sides' nature; indiscriminate use of artillery and a failure to withdraw heavy equipment from ceasefire lines. If there was a UN report saying Ukraine was engaged in genocidal actions, I certainly missed it and I would have expected Moscow would be waving that document around.

And the Donbass is ultimately on the Russians as well so that 14k is also on them.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I'd like to see Ukraine trade those two bits of the Donbas for the Crimea.