Russia Invasion Spillover

[Ajidica]

I'm still fairly confident that Pecheneg is a paid Russian troll, but that's fine for the spillover thread.

That one guy at the Russian troll meeting:

 

[pecheneg]

Strategic Bombers are detected late and close to goal? What decade are you living in?

I'm in 2020s. And do you consider the B-52 to be the newest bomber? What other recent news? Has Elvis left the building yet?
In practice, even the "Lancer" was made as it is in order to successfully fly at low altitudes, in the dead zones of ground radars.
And yes, the era of stealth came 44 years ago.

At the same time, a flying wing like the B-2
1. Has some "innate" low visibility even without special efforts. This monster

was sometimes found only almost overhead, although nothing was purposefully done with it at all. These were ancient radars, but nevertheless.
2. It is quite easy to refine to a real inconspicuousness
3. Has a high payload. This means that you can hang bombs / missiles on it, and at the same time provide a thick radio-absorbing coating. In places up to 10 cm, EMNIP.
At the same time, starting from a certain level of low visibility, the target becomes difficult to distinguish against the background of natural interference. A cloud, for example, is suddenly water/a conductor, that is, it also "glows" on the radar.
At the same time-2, already in the 80s, electronics allowed even this to fly at low altitudes.

The only reason to keep them in service in the triad is because they're visible when you pull them out and start fueling them. They're only useful in the sense that animals roar and bare their fangs and claws before engaging in lethal combat, mostly because they don't want to.

Poetically, but in reality one of the options of bombers is that they can be lifted into the air while the headquarters decide what is flying in their direction, how much of it, whose is it and what to do. And does it fly at all, because glitches of warning systems are quite common. This is a relatively stretched process.

However, as it is not difficult to guess, antiquity, remembering Malenkov and Eisenhower, copes with the function of "taking off with rockets".

 

[Farm Boy]

That certainly was a load.

Time has moved since the 70s. Eyes in the sky everywhere.

 

[Remorseless1]

Is this an instruction on how to achieve the same foreign policy successes as the United States by 1970? Thank you, but use it yourself, and as actively as possible. We liked the result.
Well, in Syria, you did a great job with "moderate terrorists".



Yes, I am aware that September 11 was an acceptable price for cooperation with degenerates. (c) Brzezinski. And a cheap successful company in Afghanistan, too.


What for? The IMF already predicts economic growth. But we'll see what Europe will look like this winter. Or the next one.

Once again, slowly. Your presence in Ukraine creates lethal threats for us - and this is the only purpose of your presence in Ukraine. What does this have to do with your colonial wars?

You do understand the US/NATO is not fighting in this criminal war? There is no " your presence" there. And you also realize that EVERY ONE of Russia's former Warsaw Pact allies desperately wanted to join NATO after experiencing 40+ years of Russian occupation? NATO didn't move east, the Pact moved west -- voluntarily.

You don't want a threatening alliance on your borders? Stop invading neighboring countries. That's all it takes.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I'm not fully following the conversation, but is some of it about how the West could be placing tactical nukes in regions that would allow a very rapid strike on Russia? That's a very legitimate threat, and should be perceived as such, because it increases the temptation of a head-chopping first strike. Of course, even small odds of a single retaliatory ICBM success should deter anyone but the most crazy .... but I prefer my odds when the Crazy doesn't have that option vs my odds that they won't just use that option.
This is what treaties are for. There's no real alternative. Using conventional strikes to deter the placement of First Strike nukes just cannot work over time.

It's not like the world is worse no parties have First Strike capacity.

China was not a part of the INF treaty, so it was in the interest of both Russia and USA to scrap it.

I guess that meant Ukraine became vastly more important suddenly.

Turkey to a lesser extent too.

 

[Angst]

You do understand the US/NATO is not fighting in this criminal war? There is no " your presence" there. And you also realize that EVERY ONE of Russia's former Warsaw Pact allies desperately wanted to join NATO after experiencing 40+ years of Russian occupation? NATO didn't move east, the Pact moved west -- voluntarily.

You don't want a threatening alliance on your borders? Stop invading neighboring countries. That's all it takes.

sidenote there's also the fun detail that ukraine got rid of their nukes and then got invaded by russia... why in the goddamn world would any country not shield themselves under a nuclear power after that

 

[Zardnaar]

For almost a year I've been waiting for an advent of a Russian person in these threads that would break all the stereotypes of Russians that I've been mercilessly propagating.
Well, I'll keep waiting.

Well it's probably 1-2 posters and several accounts.

Elsewhere with Russians you do get more diversity of opinion.

 

[saamohod]

Elsewhere with Russians you do get more diversity of opinion.

Maybe. The question is why Russians of diverse opinion never seem to appear here.

 

[Zardnaar]

Maybe. The question is why Russians of diverse opinion never seem to appear here.

Probably because only 1-2 Russians are actually here.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Any Russian who posts against the establishment might end up in jail or worse?

 

[El_Machinae]

Gelion disappeared very quickly during the onset of the war, with pleas of us not being so blase because of how horrible it was.

 

[saamohod]

Any Russian who posts against the establishment might end up in jail or worse?

Yes, but only if they get discovered. I believe there are still ample VPN options for Russians. And I don't think the government monitors what people post on the internet. I've only heard of cases when people were jailed for posting or "liking" smth on social media where their identity is shown.

 

[Angst]

We matched - it's funny not only for you.

i pointed out you weren't using formal logic, and that i found the appeal weird. eventually you did, because you think you can't provide a case for your case without it. this is why it's a tribe, a side you believe you have to be on. as i noted elsewhere

And right below you demonstrate that neglecting formal logic you can only come to the absurd.

nah, i often abandon formal logic when it collapses in the face of the concrete. more on that below

https://www.labirint.ru/books/786650/
"Logic for junior classes". Learn Russian, buy, use

i believe (american) junior high is age 14-15, and at least where i live (denmark), there's not actual formal logic taught. there's sometimes some basic explanation of syllogisms at that age, deductive/inductive reasoning, etc, and also an outline why all of those are problematic. logic is more of a high school level thing (16-18), and idk, maybe it's a bad idea not to teach the intricacies of it, but we score ~10 ranks higher than russia on an international scale. regardless, kids should be taught from the very start of logic education that it's not necessarily the end-all, since it is inherently abstract, and again, we'll get back to that

I have a surprise for you. It is impossible to build a syllogism on one statement ("arsenal is big"). It is possible to come to "intuitive" conclusions that 90% come from caves and are poorly applicable outside the cave/simple everyday situations. Exactly like this

=shows that you're not threatened=

That is, ignoring the possibilities of the other side altogether (sillogism), not to mention extrapolating them for at least a dozen years.
This is called paralogical thinking and it worked very badly for a very, very long time. Cro-Magnon won, just accept it.

so i note that you treat logic as a tribe because you want it as an ingroup. in refuting that, your appeal is... to infer me a literal caveman? xD like, how do you think you're coming across here

That is, you think that you can refute logical constructions with a deep inner conviction. Buy a book, man.

real logicians, loving logic, know the limits of it. logic is inherently abstract and does not deal with empiricism. it can outline discrepancies reasonably well, it is often useful, but logic can be true and valid within it own system, and at the same time can then be inherently false as it collapses in the face of reality.

and this is what i was going to get back to:

logic is not the end-all of everything. it does not make you right to use logic. it's a tool that works a lot, but it has sheer difficulties in the complexities of the concrete world that you have to take into consideration if you want to use it. however, your treatment of it does not take this into consideration. you want it as your tribe, because you think it makes you look better. this is what i've tried to explain to you, which was obvious from the get-go, that you wanted the appeal of logic, not the use of it.

this was basically the exchange:

you: qualitative statement, this is formal logic
me: that's not formal logic
you: i just know.
me: that's not formal logic either. looks like you just want it on your side because you think it'll make it better.
you: (spends 30 minutes writing a short logical statement) here, i made the formal logic! now it's on my side!
me: ... yea you just think appealing to formal logic makes you right. appealing to it as a morality-in-itself rather as a tool. look, there are other ways to argue
you: you disagree with me! look how illogical you are! cavemen!

 

[Joij21]

Submarines are actually involved. For Siberia, this is the main option, ground-based missiles simply do not reach.

What!? You do realize ground based ICBMs have enough thrust to achieve orbital velocity? Therefore they have unlimited and global range, the submarines are simply used as a backup in case our ground based silos are compromised or to deliver a quicker strike with less flight time.

Remember the Atlas and Redstone rockets? Yeah, those were our first ICBMs used in the 50s and 60s and they were capable of putting our first astronauts into a near earth orbit. ICBMs are the ancestors of all manned and robotic spaceflight.

And you Russians should honestly know better! You guys were the first to achieve orbit with an ICBM and were the first ones put a satellite into space! Sputnik! Gregarin was also the first ever human to be launched into orbit, also with an ICBM but with a manned capsule instead of a warhead. Has Putin truly made you folk forget about your own legacy through his propaganda???

 

[saamohod]

You have never and will never condemn Russian aggression.

You don't say.
One could argue about economical part though.

 

[FriendlyFire]

sidenote there's also the fun detail that ukraine got rid of their nukes and then got invaded by russia... why in the goddamn world would any country not shield themselves under a nuclear power after that

Smaller nations generally join an alliance like NATO to be protected by there allies nuclear arsenal
Ukraine join CSTO expecting to be protected by Russia, and shielded by Russian nuclear umbrella.
Instead they got shafted by there own ally.

 

[Yeekim]

Note that when the Ukrainian army killed Russians in the Donbas, you didn't care.

The ones who crossed over under enlightened leadership of Girkin? Those Russians?

Gelion disappeared very quickly during the onset of the war, with pleas of us not being so blase because of how horrible it was.

After Russian official line "there is going to be no invasion, this is all Western propaganda!" was proven to be just a cynical lie, he had the decency to be ashamed at least.
Hope he's doing all right.

 

[Kaitzilla]

The last bilateral nuclear weapons treaty will expire in 2026.

New START - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I hope things don't escalate to the ultimate nightmare of nuclear weapons parked in orbit or some other crazy scenario.

NOOOOOOO!!!

Russia's Putin issues new nuclear warnings to West over Ukraine

President Vladimir Putin on Tuesday delivered a warning to the West over Ukraine by suspending a landmark nuclear arms control treaty, announcing that new strategic systems had been put on combat duty, and threatening to resume nuclear tests.

www.reuters.com

Alleging that the United States was turning the war into a global conflict, Putin said Russia was suspending participation in the New START treaty, its last major arms control treaty with Washington.

This is probably about President Biden strolling around Kyiv for 5 hours probably.

No more nuke inspections for either side?

Hopefully Russia does not totally withdraw from New START Treaty.

 

[Gorbles]

So Russia does something with regards to the balance of power of the nuclear situation, and then blames the US for making it a global conflict?

Huh.

 

[Kaitzilla]

This is probably about President Biden strolling around Kyiv for 5 hours probably.

No more nuke inspections for either side?

Hopefully Russia does not totally withdraw from New START Treaty.

I was incorrect.
The suspension of New START was delivered at Russia's state of the nation speech, so was probably planned well in advance of Biden's Ukraine visit.


Here is President Biden with the air raid sirens.

Here is President Putin giving his State of the Nation 2023 speech where Russia suspended participation in New START (around the 1 hour 50 minute time).

To read a computer translation into English (quality is ???), click on the gear/settings -> Subtitles/Closed Captioning -> Russian (Auto-Generated)
Click on gear/settings again -> Subtitles/Closed Captioning -> Auto-Translate-> Scroll down and select English.

Everything Putin says should then be typed out in English at the bottom of the video.


Later in the day, President Biden gave a speech in Poland.