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SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 9, 2015.

  1. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    I'm quite surprised that kossin had such thought about GP production even after the game was completed. We had known that our war progress was the major problem. Producing more GPs only made it worse. Most of our late productions were used to produce military units and settlers instead of beakers, and we also burned a lot of cash on upgrading galleys, catas, and trebs. I don't see where we were short of cash, only the opposite.
     
  2. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    Did we stay on 100% slider the whole game? Of course, it isn't possible but saves turns.

    If less focus was spent on some of those island with settlers/workboats, more army would be available earlier. Same with some infrastructure.

    None taken, but I wish the reverse could be true also: the team gets so defensive when something different is brought up. GP generation helps with :mad:, same as slow building settlers.

    I should have voiced my concerns about the approach sooner rather, unfortunately I just don't have the free time I used to.

    Anyhow, it may be better if I go if that's the general sentiment. Not that I helped much in any case so it's certainly best that I don't do the opposite.

    I had a blast.
     
  3. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    How could we produce more army earlier? I hope that you take a careful look at the save, and read previous posts without bias.

    • First, Iron is not available, we have construction earlier enough, the metal units were the limited factor of starting the 1st war.
    • Second, happiness could not afford. We used the big cities which were far away from battle field to produce those settlers for island cities. How could you whip Athens and Argos for more military units?
    • 3rd, have you ever thought about how much those island cities had contributed? Beakers, worker, settler, muskets, galleons, cannons, and even frigates.

    I think everyone in the team has the chance to voice his/her opinions. However, if you want yours to be the final decision, you have to convince the majority. As your oldest partner, I won't hesitate if I feel convincing, just like your preference of Cathy task #2.;)
     
  4. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    Of course it would not be very easy in hindsight with the way things developed but we would have adapted the same way we did: WvO first target.

    I would like to think that capturing enemy cities even 1T earlier is better than settling 2~3 island cities when GLH is already maxed.

    Happiness issue was a function of team decisions with infrastructure. When I raised the issue, it was too late - I know.

    Take it as constructive criticism.

    EDIT: it will be interesting to see how we caught up as we were behind 10 turns for a while. Or what went wrong elsewhere.
     
  5. BSPollux

    BSPollux Chieftain

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    Good work Ducks! I updated your clues post and now I hope you join the lurkers thread and tell everyone what you think.
     
  6. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    You played a great game. It's hard when real life means players can't commit as much time. The team just has to continue doing as they see best.

    What is the true saturation point of GLH??? 20 cities?? I know cities will grow and maybe make it worth it but some island cities just become more of a hassle compared to capturing 3-4 Ai coastal cities. It's an interesting debate.
     
  7. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Gratz on a tie.:goodjob:

    It was fun following TSR and PD finish.

    Regarding luck, getting both oracle and late glh is still better than silver.
    Leaving Shaka for later was very intelligent from TSR. Accelerated domination by a fair margin.

    Exploring WB is OP :).
     
  8. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    That's why I said that you SHOULD take a look at the save carefully and then criticize! Only Shaka had HBR on T94 save. You have to give feasible and realistic ways for your thoughts, not imaginations.

    Either yourself clam down and study the saves carefully, or if Doshin and Kaitzilla want to explain to you further as they had run extensive tests at that time. I won't try further just as I said before, I failed to convince you for expansion in SGOTM18, so I don't think I could before you change back to my teammate in SGOTM11 to 13.:)
     
  9. Folket

    Folket Chieftain

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    Where do I put the preorder?
     
  10. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    The limited factor is when is the turn of victory as island cities need some turns to get the necessary infrastructures (Gra+LH). With some tricks that Doshin proposed, it takes about 35T to pay the bill (1 settler + 1 WB).

    There are dozens of posts in our thread for this issue. Here's the link for commerce situation.

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13740429&postcount=975

    If you are interested, you could read pages around that post for more discussions.
     
  11. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    I am clam down, don't worry :lol:

    We will have to agree to disagree.

    The only thing I hope the team will take from this long discussion of ours is not to get so tunnel-syndromed with the same old habits all the time.

    If the team ever has doubts whether it can prioritize :gp: more, then I've done my job.
     
  12. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    I don't know, kossin. You seem to have constructed a narrative that we neglect or mismanage :gp: as a team, and then apply this analysis to scenarios where it is wildly off base. That feels more like tunnel-syndrome to me.

    Now that files are available, you should compare the TSR save from 50BC with the PD save from 50BC. Where do the chief differences lie? In :hammers:, :), :science: (whether beakers or tech path), war progress, or :gp: ?

    Now examine the 250 and 275BC saves. How did TSR manage to get so far ahead?

    I'm quite open to new ideas and criticism, as long as the criticism is on the mark. If you want to say that our exploring WB did quite a bit better than we could have hoped, then that's fair enough. Or if you want to say that beelining Astronomy would have let us fight Archers instead of Longbows in England and France, then I totally agree. But posts like this left me utterly confused, because I couldn't reconcile what you were arguing with the reality of the game to hand.
     
  13. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Chieftain

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    Specialize and do both. I would need to learn how to convince WT to REX more. ;)
     
  14. Yamps

    Yamps Chieftain

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    Great work in the end! :goodjob: It's been popcorn mode for me for quite some time, the required level of engagement demanded much more free time than I had.

    So, how did TSR play it exactly? Really impressive that it all ended on the same turn.
     
  15. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    GLH, Catas+HAs, spy city for WvO, early Astronomy. :shifty:

    From what I glanced, we caught up because they didn't concentrate enough on development after their good initial read and went a bit everywhere. They had Industrialism on T168 and a big cash stash of 5000+ at the end, 7 turns of excess GA :confused:
     
  16. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    We've been pretty successful not REXing, capture cities instead of build them,
    but I'll REX next game if that means you'll play ;)
     
  17. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    Think about our direction after T65 again. The best way for us would be

    Stick to original Astro+Eng bulb plan and ignore GLH. with Mansa in game and lots of oversea AIs found , we probably only need 3~4 more GSs to achieve the goal.

    We could still take 2 William's best cities ~T105, but will have intercontinental stacks ready by T105. The next step would be taking GLH city and French cities, Which is going to put us on way better military position.

    The main reason why I hesitated for a while and then changed to the conventional GLH+REXing way was that I underestimated the tech speed of this map, but overestimated the need of GPs in this game (3 GPs for Izzy's task#1, and thought that we needed to run 4 GAs including the one from Taj.
     
  18. GKey

    GKey Chieftain

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    :bowdown::bowdown:

    Hurray!

    I lurked out, when saw 1 team poped silver on turn 26 and another oracled CS! It was like "Gods wish to bring ducks down" :lol:

    Huge game guys! :thumbsup:
     
  19. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    Some of the more interesting graphs:









     
  20. Duckweed

    Duckweed Chieftain

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    Counting cash after Ind was a funny thought.
     

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