SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Hurray!
Fantastic finish Doshin
I didn't think T171 was possible, and you grabbed it flawlessly.
I was worried that our friend William and all 3 ladies would end up robbed and dead on the side of the road, but the ladies survived ^.^
Isabella even got to keep her beachfront hotel city.
Time to look at some threads.
Tech-wise, it's possible, but that required earlier start of building research and less military build, very hard to predict and control. I'd say it was indeed a perfect closing.
Well, Silver and Oracle gambits aside, Shaka's DOW was also very bad for our game. It stopped the soft target from expanding (just 2 cities for us to capture on our continent 
), and meant that Shaka grew a nasty stack... which he then refused to use. I think that set our warring back by 5-turns, and without happiness (just Gems, no religion) and Forests in the core cities (2x wonders) it was a big challenge to prepare a sufficiently large army and catch back up. When did he attack Willem in other teams' games?
The explorer Work Boat was our saving grace from the early game. I think we were lucky that it made it all the way to Catherine.
Our Golden Ages were poorly timed. If religion had naturally spread to more than one city, we might have been more aggressive, but we still underestimated our
potential and held onto dreams about flawlessly capturing the Pyramids and MoM before launching a 48 turn GA. In general though, I am increasingly of the opinion that an early GA offers more than we credit it for snowballing purposes.
I tried to 1-turn Industrialism after Assembly Line.
But the 4% Great Scientist ended what was an impossible dream anyway. I think we were up to 4650BPT by the end.
T160–63 were among the toughest turns of Civ I've played. Chaining a Great Merchant from Amsterdam to Gao, East ---> West (13 ships) while using the same ships to move Cannons and Knights South ---> North, while trying to join both ends of the Galleon chain from Russia to Spain (via Japan)...
@enkage
Thanks! Yes, I think we finished on time. If not, somebody should really tell Dhoomstriker.
Did FE win via the AP or UN? On the graphs, your culture was higher and power lower than a lot of teams.
), and meant that Shaka grew a nasty stack... which he then refused to use. I think that set our warring back by 5-turns, and without happiness (just Gems, no religion) and Forests in the core cities (2x wonders) it was a big challenge to prepare a sufficiently large army and catch back up. When did he attack Willem in other teams' games?The explorer Work Boat was our saving grace from the early game. I think we were lucky that it made it all the way to Catherine.
Our Golden Ages were poorly timed. If religion had naturally spread to more than one city, we might have been more aggressive, but we still underestimated our
potential and held onto dreams about flawlessly capturing the Pyramids and MoM before launching a 48 turn GA. In general though, I am increasingly of the opinion that an early GA offers more than we credit it for snowballing purposes.I tried to 1-turn Industrialism after Assembly Line.
But the 4% Great Scientist ended what was an impossible dream anyway. I think we were up to 4650BPT by the end.T160–63 were among the toughest turns of Civ I've played. Chaining a Great Merchant from Amsterdam to Gao, East ---> West (13 ships) while using the same ships to move Cannons and Knights South ---> North, while trying to join both ends of the Galleon chain from Russia to Spain (via Japan)...
@enkage
Thanks! Yes, I think we finished on time. If not, somebody should really tell Dhoomstriker.
Did FE win via the AP or UN? On the graphs, your culture was higher and power lower than a lot of teams.
Shaka's war was very tough. We started the war with lesser power and his HAs caused a lot of trouble.
The problem of GA timing was also due to underestimating of tech rate. Most of us are still more used to regular map tech speed, such as SGOTM16.
The major factor of our game is still the war progress. Late Alpha caused late connection of Iron and late 1st war, plus the tough Shaka.
The problem of GA timing was also due to underestimating of tech rate. Most of us are still more used to regular map tech speed, such as SGOTM16.
The major factor of our game is still the war progress. Late Alpha caused late connection of Iron and late 1st war, plus the tough Shaka.
GAs and 
were mismanaged... this is not a stab at anyone, it's an observation.
To add on Doshin's previous post, early GAs are very powerful as well for the snowball, civic switched and generation.
Also, GM trade missions are realllllly good around the time we hit Education. That's where we usually lose steam and stall research for ~10 turns. Sure, the gold build-up is good for when Oxford completes but it can't make up to 10 turns of 0 research.
were mismanaged... this is not a stab at anyone, it's an observation. To add on Doshin's previous post, early GAs are very powerful as well for the snowball, civic switched and
generation.Also, GM trade missions are realllllly good around the time we hit Education. That's where we usually lose steam and stall research for ~10 turns. Sure, the gold build-up is good for when Oxford completes but it can't make up to 10 turns of 0 research.
Doshin
we went for UN, but switched to AP after Liz built it for Hindu. Plan to please Liz with Christo was changed in this way to please with SoL.
Our game was extreme peacuful, because Shaka was early blocked by WIllem and we didnt need units but wise diplo. only 1 forced war of conquest to reset AP counter
we went for UN, but switched to AP after Liz built it for Hindu. Plan to please Liz with Christo was changed in this way to please with SoL.
Our game was extreme peacuful, because Shaka was early blocked by WIllem and we didnt need units but wise diplo. only 1 forced war of conquest to reset AP counter
@Duckweed
If I were to replay this map with the benefit of hindsight, I don't think that I would try to get Mansa to research Astronomy. Obviously if he had gone for it before Divine Right, that would have been an absolute gain for us. And again, once he opted to research Astronomy, we had to trade for it (too many lost if we both research it). But the timing for us was really bad. It compounded our earlier problems with slow warring (no easy AI to choke; no metal or easy HA target to rush; water map) and delayed our access to Stone, Marble, and the concomitant wonders.
@kossin
When did we stop research to gather gold after Education? Or in which cities did we have enough early happiness, or religion, or GP slots to generate Great People?
Honestly, our GA timing was a big problem in this game, (6 turns left on only the 3rd GA of the game at the finish), but GP generation was always in line with our horizon of expectations. Meaning no offense, you seem to have developed a preoccupation with GPs in recent SGOTMs, ever since snaaty's HOF space-race thread, and when the reality of the game does not accord with the ideal, you throw out doomsday predictions that do nothing to help team spirit or advance play. I mean, when I tried to show to you why we had not generated more than 3 Great People before Education, and how
for our army were the pressing problem and not , you said that we should have researched Monarchy. 
Again, I mean no offense when I say this, but I seriously hope that you will reacquire enough interest in Civ to play a set in the future, so that you can reconcile your belief in the power of GPs with the demands of the game to hand.
@Pangaea
Thanks.
I don't know if it has happened before, but I've only played in 4 of the 21 SGOTMs. LTC would be a good person to ask.
If I were to replay this map with the benefit of hindsight, I don't think that I would try to get Mansa to research Astronomy. Obviously if he had gone for it before Divine Right, that would have been an absolute gain for us. And again, once he opted to research Astronomy, we had to trade for it (too many lost
if we both research it). But the timing for us was really bad. It compounded our earlier problems with slow warring (no easy AI to choke; no metal or easy HA target to rush; water map) and delayed our access to Stone, Marble, and the concomitant wonders.@kossin
When did we stop research to gather gold after Education?
Or in which cities did we have enough early happiness, or religion, or GP slots to generate Great People?Honestly, our GA timing was a big problem in this game, (6 turns left on only the 3rd GA of the game at the finish), but GP generation was always in line with our horizon of expectations. Meaning no offense, you seem to have developed a preoccupation with GPs in recent SGOTMs, ever since snaaty's HOF space-race thread, and when the reality of the game does not accord with the ideal, you throw out doomsday predictions that do nothing to help team spirit or advance play. I mean, when I tried to show to you why we had not generated more than 3 Great People before Education, and how
for our army were the pressing problem and not , you said that we should have researched Monarchy. Again, I mean no offense when I say this, but I seriously hope that you will reacquire enough interest in Civ to play a set in the future, so that you can reconcile your belief in the power of GPs with the demands of the game to hand.
@Pangaea
Thanks.
I don't know if it has happened before, but I've only played in 4 of the 21 SGOTMs. LTC would be a good person to ask.
@Duckweed
If I were to replay this map with the benefit of hindsight, I don't think that I would try to get Mansa to research Astronomy. Obviously if he had gone for it before Divine Right, that would have been an absolute gain for us. And again, once he opted to research Astronomy, we had to trade for it (too many lost
I think I actually suggested to research Astronomy ourselves, but soon denied it as promoting galleys partially solved the problem. I'm still not sure which way would be better.
aitkensam
Warlord
Really enjoyed reading your guys thread throughout this SGOTM. Taught me a lot of cool things!
Still find it amazing that after such a good finish date you find so many shortfalls in your play and so many ways to improve. Quite motivating.
Still find it amazing that after such a good finish date you find so many shortfalls in your play and so many ways to improve. Quite motivating.
@Duckweed
Slightly better to upgrade Galleys, I think, but it made the next 15 turns much harder to plan and play. The decision had to be taken when we traded Compass and Optics.
OFC, if MM doesn't go for Astronomy in that period of the game, Nationalism, Liberalism, and Economics are all likely targets.
I also think 1-turning Communism was bigger than we realized at the time. It put the next 3 civic switches ahead by a turn, so SP/OR came 1-turn sooner, which let us build the HE/Moai Statues/Oxford 1-turn sooner, and then we could switch into Representation/Pacifism 1-turn sooner, and then Nationalism to draft 1-turn... etc.
@aitkensam
Thanks. I'm sure that the thread is much more interesting if you just look at the pics and skip over the micro discussion.
One day, I'll publish: "How to set up a 1-tile Fish Island in Just 25 turns!" It will be a bestseller.
Slightly better to upgrade Galleys, I think, but it made the next 15 turns much harder to plan and play. The decision had to be taken when we traded Compass and Optics.
OFC, if MM doesn't go for Astronomy in that period of the game, Nationalism, Liberalism, and Economics are all likely targets.
I also think 1-turning Communism was bigger than we realized at the time. It put the next 3 civic switches ahead by a turn, so SP/OR came 1-turn sooner, which let us build the HE/Moai Statues/Oxford 1-turn sooner, and then we could switch into Representation/Pacifism 1-turn sooner, and then Nationalism to draft 1-turn... etc.
@aitkensam
Thanks.
I'm sure that the thread is much more interesting if you just look at the pics and skip over the micro discussion.One day, I'll publish: "How to set up a 1-tile Fish Island in Just 25 turns!" It will be a bestseller.
