Should confederate monuments be destroyed?

[Lexicus]

Only to the ignorant.

What does it mean when you say a tribe holds land sacred?
Who or what determines which lands a tribe holds sacred?

The Black Hills were given to the Lakota (in perpetuity) in 1868 and then taken away in 1876.

Yes, the violation of the treaty is what makes it criminal...but I guess the Lakota who I have heard (and read) saying it is a desecration of the Six Grandfathers are ignorant of their own culture. Food for thought, eh?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

And what will the future say about the heroes of today? Kennedy had a dog?!! Gore drove a car?!! Valka didn't free her cats?!!

I would be looked down on if I did turn my cats out to fend for themselves, and possibly charged with abandoning them. Maddy has a toy mouse she plays with, but it would surprise me greatly if she knew how to catch a real one. After she came to live with me, she's been an indoor cat.

I've never been one to adopt a cat only so they can deal with the mice. It's a bonus if they do, but I've never demanded it of them.

Do you think womanizing is morally equivalent to owning slaves?

It depends on if the women are allowed to say "no" and the men accept that.

 

[Lexicus]

It depends on if the women are allowed to say "no" and the men accept that.

Well, I'm unaware of MLK raping anyone, but considering that slavery includes "women not allowed to say no" plus lots of other injustices, I still think slavery is worse.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I've got to go out, but will be back. Treaty violations are all about politics and law. Calling land sacred is another matter entirely.

 

[Glassfan]

I would be looked down on if...

That's just it. You don't know what arbitrary thing they'll judge you on a century from now.

I think you're doing fine. But I'm from the last century.

 

[cardgame]

I'm undecided on whether I think they should be destroyed or just moved. I think the ongoing sentimentality of the Confederacy is part of the story, and there's a great deal of misunderstanding of what the Confederacy was and what it represented. For instance, a lot of people conflate the Confederacy with the South. I suspect these standing memorials perpetuate that confusion, so they at least need to be removed.

I'm confused, too. The Confederacy was the South. Unless you mean to simply say that the present-day south is different, which, let's be honest, all those stars and bars don't exactly help your theory. But otherwise is an obvious statement.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If you understood the reality of either modern or past Native American culture, you would not make such a ridiculous statement.

It doesn't sound like you know what you're talking about.

I give BirdJag the credibility on this one Lex...you would do well to fold.

 

[warpus]

Maybe just lock up all the statues in a jail that people could visit and look at all the statues behind bars

 

[Naskra]

Leave the monuments. Public opinion is too fickle to be moving heavy objects every time it is seized with a mood.

 

[Berzerker]

they're highly offensive to a bunch of taxpayers, I dont think their opinions will change

 

[Valka D'Ur]

That's just it. You don't know what arbitrary thing they'll judge you on a century from now.

I think you're doing fine. But I'm from the last century.

If I worried overmuch about hypothetical future arbitrary judgments on what I do in my own home, I'd be too afraid to get out of bed in the morning (oops; society already judges people like me on that score - if I'm sick, depressed, having an extremely low-energy day, it's obviously a character flaw that I have total control over).

There's a saying about cats: "Cats are just little people with fur and fangs." Maddy is approximately 4 feet shorter than I am. She has fur and fangs. She's got favorite foods, toys, places to sleep, ways to show affection, ways she wants me to show affection to her, and ways to tell me when she thinks I'm being an idiot.

She's an individual little feline person who has some limited legal rights, and yes, I could be charged and jailed if I don't take proper care of her.

 

[Naskra]

they're highly offensive to a bunch of taxpayers, I dont think their opinions will change

That's not so certain: http://www.npr.org/2017/08/16/54395...nse-to-charlottesville-hasn-t-been-strong-eno

scroll down to the monuments question.

 

[Berzerker]

and?

 

[EgonSpengler]

To be fair, a lot of southerners have an identity cultivated around the confederacy. To say its conflated by ornery outsiders is false.

I don't know anyone who says it's ornery outsiders. In fact, nobody I know up here in the Northeast, confuses the Confederacy with the South.

I'm confused, too. The Confederacy was the South. Unless you mean to simply say that the present-day south is different, which, let's be honest, all those stars and bars don't exactly help your theory. But otherwise is an obvious statement.

That is what I mean, yes. The Confederacy was the South, but isn't any longer. And I agree that it's an obvious statement, but White Supremacists are, by definition, not well tuned in to reality.

 

[Lexicus]

I give BirdJag the credibility on this one Lex...you would do well to fold.

I tend to trust non-anonymous people over anonymous forum posters pretty much 100% of the time, so...

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I tend to trust non-anonymous people over anonymous forum posters pretty much 100% of the time, so...

Yeah, I understand that. However, having met BirdJag, and given the circumstances under which I met him, even though I generally give you a lot of what I consider well earned credibility in this case you are over matched.

 

[Naskra]

and?

And maybe you shouldn't be speaking for that "whole bunch of taxpayers".

 

[Lexicus]

Yeah, I understand that. However, having met BirdJag, and given the circumstances under which I met him, even though I generally give you a lot of what I consider well earned credibility in this case you are over matched.

I consider my credibility in this matter entirely beside the point.

 

[metatron]

Who's with me?

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/17/politics/confederate-symbols-by-the-numbers/index.html

Amazingly, my state has 1. I do want to vandalize it. But according to the little picture, it seems to be in the middle of nowhere. I'm not driving that far for that.

Well, there are a lot of things in that "other" category, CNN named a few.
So what would one do arriving there and discovering that it's the "John Jay Mofo Trail" or whatever?

Think about it, isn't it strange to have monuments to Confederate generals? You don't see monuments to Rommel in Germany do you? (at least I don't think you do, I haven't actually been there). He may be a great general, but there is no reason to have a monument for him.

I'm not sure about a statue, i don't think we have one.
But we have lots of Rommel nonsense. That Barracks i referenced in the other thread, various other things named after him, a small monument in his hometown or something, various plaques, things of that nature, most of that is regionally concentrated in Swabia.
Often these are rather derpy things; if you go through the list you half expect a Rommel Outhouse next. The US army is laying down wreaths at Rommel's grave every year btw.

The reason for this is (besides the somewhat shaky association with the conspiracy Sarmatian pointed out) largely that Rommel is deemed an idiot and too dumb and a-political to be a proper Nazi, to put it in a nutshell. This is somewhat debatable, but as far i can tell, that's what it is.

The comparison works though if you pick certain other generals.
A factor, though, may be that those were tried, and executed.
And nobody did that to Lee.

"Removing those statures is removing history."

Those who support keeping the statures will be amazed to learn that a more extensive history exists in books.

Look, i don't fully buy into that argument, but there's a bit of a point to it.
For one there's the problem that if all confederacy associated statues etc. are removed one can walk through American cities without noticing that slavery and the civil war ever happened.
You have to admit that's fairly odd, to say the least.
Like, if we were you the National Mall would look very very different...

Like, from a German point of view your deficit in tearing down monuments is arguably less distrubing than your deficit in erecting monuments.
Sure, there's Kelly Ingram Park and some other things... but you hold that up next to that map at CNN and next to the ginormous slaveholder monuments in in DC.
Can you help but sigh?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I consider my credibility in this matter entirely beside the point.

It's his that isn't.