Single Player bugs and crashes v35 plus (SVN) - After the 18th of August 2014
- Thread starter Dancing Hoskuld
- Start date
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Which is to say that Player level % bonuses are first given then local level % bonuses are calculated off that total. Interesting. Still doesn't quite make the food tag issue and the removal issues make sense exactly.
Food counting doesnt make any sense to me either
Always missing a couple or there is couple to many, that never got to the point that would break any of my games. BUT the "wasted" food mechanic is absolute mystery. At some point my towns stop wasting and start to grow to ridiculous sizes reached to 300+ couple of times, it just dissapears
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
It's... a difficult mechanic to explain.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
EDIT: Also isnt the Rapa supposed to do (almost) the same as a worker?? all it does is road and Moai statues?? pic 3)
Noriad2
Emperor
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So, looking at the example I have given, if there is a stone tool maker present, the bonuses are multiplicative but if the stone tool maker is deleted, the bonuses become additive. Sounds like incredibly messy code to me. And it doesn't explain why a 5/4/5 stone tool maker gives 7 base hammers instead of 5.
besides, in the left hand pane the bonuses are shown as adding up to 65% in the screenshots.
Perhaps the bonuses were at one time multiplicative but were changed to additive, and the code was not completely changed. That would explain the sporadic complaints from players about the AI building incredible amounts of units. If you have a bit of feel for maths formulas, you'd know that a multiplicative formula like (base) x (1 + bonus1) x (1 + bonus2) x (1 + bonus3) goes up extremely fast as the bonuses get higher, much faster than an additive formula like (base) x (1 + bonus1 + bonus2 + bonus3). Write out some examples for yourself if you don't believe me.
Like I said, the city bookkeeping is in need of a thorough audit. And if the bonuses are indeed sometimes multiplicative as you suggest, the code should probably be thrown out and rewritten, with bonuses being additive as the norm, as this is much easier to balance.
Any discussion about unit cost and game balance is meaningless as long as the city's bookkeeping is this buggy.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I am looking at getting rid of this unit and the two Andean Workers and merge them into the normal workers. The Moai Statues, Geoglyphs and Machu Picchu improvements will require a resource to build and the culture, and wonders will provide that resource. I need to see if I can make them graphical only so it does not appear on any of the diplomacy or trade screens as they will be unique resources.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Usually when that happens we have to remove the offending terrain or terrain feature
but now we have someone who may be able to fix it.Perhaps although I have no Idea what could be causing it; I will try to take a look and see if there's something that is off in the model.Usually when that happens we have to remove the offending terrain or terrain feature
A quickfix may be to only allow outcrops in flatland.
They add up to 65% but its not how engine counts them that why they each have separate line, its just city UI show things for us in a confusing way, every new source is separate multiplier for game engine. Not saying it is good or bad, but it is how it always was in civ4, no other mod pushed game engine this much like C2C so none paid much attention to it.
I love that every new line can be multiplied like that, its very easy to scale things with each new era. Every era could rely on new multiplier layer to scale things up quicker. But that is discussion for another time.
What happens once you remove building or recalculate is odd for me too. But after you do a turn it get back to how it was before. Might be just UI messing up or some calculations updating only on turn calculation. Or it might be that some bonuses get multiplied for each building, then base summed up and it gets multiplied again
Or some buildings that gives bonuses from tech unlocks or resources give them without unlocking or obsolete bonuses not take out properly.AI building so many units is not really an issue, I for instance grow my wonder capital to size 200+ regularly, with slaves, wonders and all buildings built i churn 15k hammers a turn if not more, and that is normal for me. I get really upset that in modern age i can only build just few units a turn, or wonders take too many turns to build, feeling when you build 40 prophets at once is really satisfying
Production output to building/unit costs falls of drastically with the era passage, that's when game becomes boring. Need to up production a bit in industrial/modern era, falloff is crippling.
Pick from my test game, industrial era, pushing for new tech unlock. My capitol makes more research than any AI with all his little villages
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Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Usually when that happens we have to remove the offending terrain or terrain feature
Actually, that graphic looks rather like the graphic problems caused by the babirusa, probably just offscreen. (Seen that one way too often, since I can recognize it from the thumbnail - didn't even need to open the pic file, but I did, just to make sure.)
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
The problem is that I don't get the problem with the terrain graphics that I use. But yes we can set all 18 or 12 outcrops to only be on flat lands.
The babirusa used to cause problems but I have not seen any problems with it lately.
Noriad2
Emperor
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I reloaded a save and the graphics bug seems to have vanished. As I don't know for certain what caused it, perhaps hold off of any drastic repairs for now?
It would be super weird if this issue was caused by the ground texture underneath the outcrop. No, this is most likely a model issue, possibly an interaction between hill and outcrop models.
PS: I have never seen this problem with the outcrop before and I use standard textures.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
What SVN version (actual version number) are you using when this happened? And did you trace the bar as far as it would go? Like the barbirosa glitch if you followed the bar it would lead you to the offending unit.
JosEPh
Noriad2
Emperor
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A bunch of incorrect statements. After I delete my stone tool maker and run a few turns, the bonus stays a flat 65%. Confirmed with my own calculator.
Also as far as I know, basic civ4 only had 1 multiplier per type of production so "how it always was in civ4" is nonsense too.
You're kidding, right? Many players quit mid-game because either the game becomes tedious with too many units, or the turn time becomes so long the game slows down to a crawl.
From a strategy point of view, there is little additional depth in stacks larger than 40 or so units. Just more micromanagement, both for the player and the AI (which leads to increased turn time). So no point to design the economy so as to allow stacks of hundreds of units.
The trouble with multiplicative bonuses is that as the bonuses get bigger, it becomes all-or-nothing. Cities that have all bonuses from buildings etc., have an incredibly high production due to the synergy of various bonuses working together. The price of units and buildings must be increased to balance that. But the other side of the coin is that cities or even civs that don't have all those bonuses will have relatively pathetic production. Additive bonuses give a much more balanced increase, allowing the smaller cities and civs to still be relevant compared to the top cities.
I get really upset that in modern age i can only build just few units a turn, or wonders take too many turns to build, feeling when you build 40 prophets at once is really satisfying
Production output to building/unit costs falls of drastically with the era passage, that's when game becomes boring. Need to up production a bit in industrial/modern era, falloff is crippling.
Apparently your fun comes from building lots of stuff in a short time. Not disparaging that but that is what the fastest game speed plus lower difficulty levels is made for.
I myself enjoy the strategy part the most. And power creep (giving the player more and more power) destroys strategy. It is the job of the game designer to create challenges and the job of the player to overcome challenges. A game designer that just gives players anything they want is not doing his job right.
Regarding your remark about too little production in later ages, it is simply a matter of setting prices of units/buildings in balance with the expected production levels in any particular era. But to do that well, any major bugs in bookkeeping must be resolved first. Otherwise the prediction of expected production levels go wrong.
Noriad2
Emperor
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SVN of at most a day old. I update regularly.
The bar ran all the way north, but as soon as I scrolled north and the outcrop tile dropped off screen, the bar suddenly vanished.
I did save the game but unfortunately upon reloading the bug has vanished. The autosaves don't exist anymore because I started a new game.
As I cannot reproduce the bug, I must withdraw the bug report for now. Sorry.
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