Single Player bugs and crashes v37 plus (SVN) - After the 24th of December 2016

[Thunderbrd]

Are your 2 New Options On by default?

No. But after seeing this report I just reviewed a math tweak and it looks like I did goof a bit. I'll try to get that fixed up right away.

It's not about the options being on or off or really anything to do with them. I just screwed up the math a bit in trying to improve it. I did the right thing but not quite the right way.

 

[JosEPh_II]

You really should check it yourself. I'm pretty sure it's an unintended bug.

Can't with out a save game. And read my post above about games started before the Tech tree changes started.

 

[JosEPh_II]

No. But after seeing this report I just reviewed a math tweak and it looks like I did goof a bit. I'll try to get that fixed up right away.

It's not about the options being on or off or really anything to do with them. I just screwed up the math a bit in trying to improve it. I did the right thing but not quite the right way.

Awww sooooo.....

 

[Septimius]

How do you know that all tech costs are lower? And lower by a factor of 10, ie going from 30 turns to 3 turns. Plus have you done a Re-Calc? And if so given it a couple of turns to stabilize?

Otherwise, if those 2 New Options are Not turned On (would need to check thru World builder) that T-brd introduced then there may be a problem with the new Tag he introduced that supports them. It's an Era tag.

This whole period of tech tree changes is going to cause a lot of "wonkyness" for games started before the changes started taking place. It may get to the point you will need to abadon the game Or revert your SVN version Back the version you started this game with.

Well, I've been following the tech costs pretty closely throughout the game, to min-max what I'm doing, so when I saw the techs were suddenly finishing very quickly and the new ones had 3 turn research time, I immediately looked at my science point income, which was unchanged - and then I found the culprit which was significantly lower tech costs. I mean when you're used to techs costing tens of thousands of points, you notice when they suddenly only cost you 12000. I was pretty sure I was looking at a faster game speed tech cost.

And I always do re-calcs.

No point in giving the game a few turns as this had nothing to do with my income, but with the price of techs. All the scores go up and down, but the price of stuff mostly stays the same whatever you do. The only ones that can change what techs, buildings etc. cost are you guys. So yeah - bug or a massive change.

 

[Shoobs]

I do not use windows 10.
However Windows 7 has it in the same location.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Septimius,

See T-brd's response above.

 

[Septimius]

I've installed SVN 9504, run the recalc and the tech cost is still bugged. No change from earlier...

 

[JosEPh_II]

I've installed SVN 9504, run the recalc and the tech cost is still bugged. No change from earlier...

It make take several turn to straighten out. If after another 5 turns it's still borked then there is still the problem. A Re-Calc resets all the base values. It takes several turns of processing for the base values to get back to where all the modifier's put them. Thought I said that twice now?

So after a couple or 3 more turns and no change the next step is to post a savegame and screenshot if possible.

 

[Septimius]

I don't think you're getting what I'm talking about.Tech cost, not tech point income.

You're talking about something I've never seen happen in the game before. Crime rate, pollution, tech point income, gold, all that - sure! Flying up and down and then settling into place, but tech cost or building cost? Never.

I'll click the turn button a couple of times to give it a try and see if it changes anything.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I don't think you're getting what I'm talking about.Tech cost, not tech point income.

You're talking about something I've never seen happen in the game before. Crime rate, pollution, tech point income, gold, all that - sure! Flying up and down and then settling into place, but tech cost or building cost? Never.

I'll click the turn button a couple of times to give it a try and see if it changes anything.

Yes I do. I'm just going thru debugging steps with you. The techtree changes can have wide ranged effects. If we cover the bases then that helps narrow down where to look. Do we understand each other now?

And as I posted above, if no changes then a save game and a screenshot showing your case are the next steps.

EDIT: In SVN 9495 T-brd wrote:

@All:
This commit also changed the way tech modifiers total, so that no one modifier is more important than another based on the order in which they apply. This could help to reduce some calculation confusion that can arise.

Not sure if T-brd's last commit involved this. But I'm leaning towards it. Because the modifiers found in GameSpeedInfos were acting like a global modifier. And since you are playing Eternity then the changes ("changed the way tech modifiers total") would have a much more pronounced effect on Tech Costs. And I have not seen it because my last 2 test games are on Normal GS. I do not have an Eternity game running now. Too many changes to keep up with on that Game speed for any real short term testing.

 

[Septimius]

Yes I do. I'm just going thru debugging steps with you. The techtree changes can have wide ranged effects. If we cover the bases then that helps narrow down where to look. Do we understand each other now?

And as I posted above, if no changes then a save game and a screenshot showing your case are the next steps.

Well, I went six turns and nothing changed, the bug persists. The first Classical tech costs 16281 pts, which I seem to remember were closer to 96000 pts before the last 6 or 7 SVN changes. On eternity obviously... Isn't there a standard cost for everything and then a multiplier that should be applied? That's what I mean when I say you should check it, you don't need a savegame to see if the multiplier is applied correctly...

I would've uploaded my savegame, but it says the file is too large - even after I've compressed it with winrar. I'm off to bed soon, so I'll leave this for tomorrow and maybe use Dropbox or see if some options exist for compressing to even smaller files... 7z and then Winrar maybe...

 

[JosEPh_II]

Read the last of my above post please, for your information.

We may need you to revert your game to 9494 and see if the Tech costs change back to what you remember.

That's what I mean when I say you should check it, you don't need a savegame to see if the multiplier is applied correctly...

No I can't because I can't do C++ like T-brd. I'm narrowing down when and where so it helps him. And you are doing some of the leg work we can't. We don't have your game in front of us.

 

[Septimius]

Read the last of my above post please, for your information.

We may need you to revert your game to 9494 and see if the Tech costs change back to what you remember.



No I can't because I can't do C++ like T-brd. I'm narrowing down when and where so it helps him. And you are doing some of the leg work we can't. We don't have your game in front of us.

Ok, makes sense! I've reverted to 9494 and will spin up the game to see what happens.

 

[Thunderbrd]

When I tested, it seemed a little low as well but the math should be right now.

However, yes, as Joseph explained, it can tally a little differently and later modifiers in the original modifier hierarchy can have much less impact if previous modifiers had a heavy impact as well.

AKA, if you have a tech cost of 50.

Then you Multiply that by 150 for modifier 1 and divide it by 100. You then have 75.

Then you Multiply 75 by 150 for modifier 2 and divide it by 100. You then have 112 (always rounds down.)

Let's say instead you do it the way it's just been adjusted to work:

You take Modifier 1 and subtract it by 100 to get the actual modifier amount: 50. You do the same to modifier 2 and add the two together. Now you have 100. Add another 100 at the end so that the multiply/divide method still works properly. You get 200. Times that by the original amount (50) and you get 10000. Then divide by 100 and you get 100. 50 + 2 modifiers of +50% totaling a 100% modifier. Add another 100% to 50 and you get 100.

So yes, this may have thrown things a bit off but the math should be so much easier to work with in the final result since all tech modifiers are equal and you don't, as a modder, have to guess which one is more important (because it's applied earlier in the process.)

The previous error was that I totaled the modifiers assuming they were all based on 0 being the 0 point and all these modifiers have assumed 100 is the 0 point.

 

[Septimius]

Well, I can say this much for certain: At some point after 9494, the tech cost of Classical Lifestyle in my eternity nightmare game went from 83505 pts to 16821 pts. I just reverted the game to 9494 and it works as it did before.


EDIT: Yeah, I double-checked and it's definitely 9495 that makes this change... Classical lifestyle on eternity, nightmare, has gone from costing 83505 to 16821. And the same incremental drop for all other techs (at a glance).

I can't say if it's a bug or an improvement... It would definitely make the game faster. I mean I am around 1300 AD and all of us, AI and player, are only just heading into classical civilization, which is behind by like 2000 years give or take a few hundred years, historically.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I have just been running the XMLValidator program by Koshing over some of the C2C folders, I was trying to find a strangeness in one of my files. I found a whole heap of problems, mostly due to the schema not being pointed to correctly and I will post the fixes for all of them to the SVN shortly. However there were 2 which weren't in mods I have worked on and I am not sure what needs to be fixed.

eValidating files in the current directory and all subdirectories
F:\Games\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\My_Mods\Neanderthal_Units\Neanderthal_Units_CIV4UnitInfos.xml:2260,6: The 'x-schema:Neanderthal_Units_CIV4UnitSchema.xml:NotUnitAI' element is not declared.
-----------------------------------
F:\Games\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\My_Mods\New_Cultures\XML\Heroes_CIV4UnitInfos.xml:34867,5: The 'x-schema:New_Cultures_CIV4UnitSchema.xml:iBaseFoodChange' element is not declared.

Someone else needs to look at these as fix them, probably after I get the other fixes up there as I did fix some of the Neanderthal_Units files.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

There is still something very wrong with the tech rate, normally on snail/noble/huge I would expect and enjoy 16+ turns to study a tech, as you can see it is saying 6! Very latest SVN.

 

[strategyonly]

I have just been running the XMLValidator program by Koshing over some of the C2C folders,.

How different is this one from the one Alberts2 had??

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

How different is this one from the one Alberts2 had??

Maybe it is the one Alberts2 did. I may be confusing the authors.

 

[JosEPh_II]

There is still something very wrong with the tech rate, normally on snail/noble/huge I would expect and enjoy 16+ turns to study a tech, as you can see it is saying 6! Very latest SVN.

This is the effect of T-brd's changes from 9495 and later commit. He made it so all Tech cost modifiers carry the same weight. So far from what I've seen reported this has really messed up the GameSpeedInfos tech cost modifiers as they were the Main/last/ most important. And the one in EraInfos has also changed. From what i can see I will need Massively Huge Modifiers in GS and Eras to get back close to what the Tech rates were before this change. He was trying to simplifiy. It's not really working imhpo.

@T-brd,
These changes are not what is needed. GameSpeedInfos Techcost modifier Must be the last/most important modifier in this math chain. To make it = with all the rest does not simplify anything. It makes it harder to adjust. And EraInfo must be the next to last. Please as i've posted in the SVN changelog thread revert the math you've done/started in 9495, Please. At least until the Tech tree is done, then we can bring it back up to discuss.