Single Player bugs and crashes v37 plus (SVN) - After the 24th of December 2016

[Noriad2]

Thunderbrd: you forget that once you have a tech, copies of that tech are free. Which means that it does not cost you anything to sell a tech, but the money and units you get in return are valuable to you and are an economic sacrifice for those who pay with it. That doesn't invalidate the value of a tech edge but never ever selling techs is not necessarily the optimum strategy. Especially if there are many civs in the game and you are selling to a backwards civ.

 

[tmv]

The AI should take the option "No Tech Brokering" into consideration (I don't know if it does) and be more willing to sell (and less willing to buy) in that case.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Thunderbrd: you forget that once you have a tech, copies of that tech are free. Which means that it does not cost you anything to sell a tech, but the money and units you get in return are valuable to you and are an economic sacrifice for those who pay with it. That doesn't invalidate the value of a tech edge but never ever selling techs is not necessarily the optimum strategy. Especially if there are many civs in the game and you are selling to a backwards civ.

Perhaps I haven't mentioned it but I'm almost positive it's another factor the AI takes into account is how behind the civ is.

Personally, I'm sure you're right but usually the AIs that can sell a tech to another AI that is far enough back that I'd consider selling a particular tech to have already done so. I'd like the AI player to be at least an age left behind before I start considering selling a tech and by then they expect you to just give it to them for free. Tech brokering is a part of the reason for that - if they get it they'll turn around and sell it to my chief rival without hesitation. But if Tech brokering is off I suppose I would be faster to be willing to trade a tech.

In large part I stopped worrying about tech trading strategy a long time ago because I found games without tech trading felt a lot more fair.

The AI should take the option "No Tech Brokering" into consideration (I don't know if it does) and be more willing to sell (and less willing to buy) in that case.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Latest SNV I am getting a "Failed to compress game data" message when I try and save a game.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Latest SNV I am getting a "Failed to compress game data" message when I try and save a game.

If nobody else is getting this then it would seem to have to be an issue on your end. I can't exactly ask you for a save game that 'replicates the problem' unless maybe it IS just the one game? hmm... I haven't done much lately with the save stream.

 

[pepper2000]

It's a mystery to me too. I'm trying to think of what I might have done in my previous update that could cause a problem. Nothing comes to mind.

 

[raxo2222]

I yet again loaded my save at end of history, built and hurried some buildings and managed to save game.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It seems to be saving the game and then I get the error.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Latest SNV I am getting a "Failed to compress game data" message when I try and save a game.

This usually shows up when the save version has been changed from 302. It's in a config or .ini file for Civ IV, can't remember which atm.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

This usually shows up when the save version has been changed from 302. It's in a config or .ini file for Civ IV, can't remember which atm.

I do not understand what you are saying here.

It was not saving as I can't load any of the saves.

 

[tmv]

SVN 9785, no modmod other than Interface Overhaul, Classical Era: Work Mules cannot improve iron in mountains. Did not test the other animal workers (they could reach the mountains if helped by a commander with the appropriate promotion).

This might be an older bug that wasn't important until these resources could be accessed before Mountaineering (SVN 9777).

 

[Thunderbrd]

SVN 9785, no modmod other than Interface Overhaul, Classical Era: Work Mules cannot improve iron in mountains. Did not test the other animal workers (they could reach the mountains if helped by a commander with the appropriate promotion).

This might be an older bug that wasn't important until these resources could be accessed before Mountaineering (SVN 9777).

Most likely they can once mountain mines open up. Until then, perhaps the stone gatherer shouldn't be able to? I wonder how others feel on that.

 

[Toffer90]

Most likely they can once mountain mines open up. Until then, perhaps the stone gatherer shouldn't be able to?

Metals in mountain plots should be inaccessible until mountain mines are unlocked.
Stone workshop improvement should not be able to provide iron at all, you can't just find a piece of iron and use knapping techniques to shape something useful from it.

Looked at the XML.
Stone workshop is enabled by, and provides: ▬ Stone, Marble, Obsidian, Jade, Amber, Turquoise, Fine Clay, Gold, Silver, Copper.
Green, ok by me.
Red, not ok by me.
Yellow, ambivalent. I made a pre-quarry improvement in the "My take on stuff" modmod called Dig Pit, which was unlocked at the Digging technology.
I think I made it so that it provides all those yellow marked resources, and it was not possible to build it on peak plots.

 

[tmv]

perhaps the stone gatherer shouldn't be able to

Not possible for the Work Mule. The Llama Worker might be able to, but I think the other animal workers cannot build that.

 

[tmv]

Metals in mountain plots should be inaccessible until mountain mines are unlocked.

Perhaps, but mountains being inaccessible until Medieval is extremely strict (Hannibal, anyone?).

Edit: Sorry for the double post, but the first post had vanished suddenly. And why isn't it possible to insert quotes in an edit?

 

[Toffer90]

Perhaps, but mountains being inaccessible until Medieval is extremely strict (Hannibal, anyone?).

That's a different question though, but I agree, there should be a very limited but possible way to cross mountain ranges early.

Perhaps the "Mountain Mine" should be unlocked later than the mountaineering tech.
Or perhaps we should have a cross mountain commander (or attached general) promo that is unlocked earlier than mountaineering tech. (Edit: I Wrongly assumed due to the complaint about mountains not being accessible until medieval era.)
Or perhaps we should have a wonder, that is unlocked earlier, that gives units the ability to cross peaks. (Provides a leader trait that can have that effect, or something.)
Or perhaps we should have 100% terrain damage on peaks, have several new promos that reduce that damage, and let them always be crossable.

Potentially a big project, and not easy to decide the correct path just like that either. ^^

{ Edit:

Sorry for the double post, but the first post had vanished suddenly. And why isn't it possible to insert quotes in an edit?

Drives me nuts you can't insert quotes in an edit but the whole quote system is such an upgrade that I can forgive the limitation.

I don't get what you two are talking about.
}

 

[Harrier]

Most likely they can once mountain mines open up. Until then, perhaps the stone gatherer shouldn't be able to? I wonder how others feel on that.

If a resource is on a mountain tile the stone gatherer should be able to access it. After all the deposits may be at the base of the mountain and not higher up.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Metals in mountain plots should be inaccessible until mountain mines are unlocked.
Stone workshop improvement should not be able to provide iron at all, you can't just find a piece of iron and use knapping techniques to shape something useful from it.

Looked at the XML.
Stone workshop is enabled by, and provides: ▬ Stone, Marble, Obsidian, Jade, Amber, Turquoise, Fine Clay, Gold, Silver, Copper.
Green, ok by me.
Red, not ok by me.
Yellow, ambivalent. I made a pre-quarry improvement in the "My take on stuff" modmod called Dig Pit, which was unlocked at the Digging technology.
I think I made it so that it provides all those yellow marked resources, and it was not possible to build it on peak plots.

I'm not so ambivalent on the yellows. I strongly think they should.

The reds all make sense to question. Are all of those post mining only? All three of those are possible to derive in nugget form or are not difficult to heat the rocks and collect the dripage so maybe all 3 are still ok. Iron makes a LOT of sense, however, to NOT make possible to get from the Stone workshop. The amount you can get out of a deposit is small and the melting point is VERY high comparatively. The fact is you'd have to collect far more and until mining and the transportation infrastructure OF a mine (which is a big part of the reason Mountain Mines are held to a later tech than normal mines) the limitations would be prohibitive, imo.

What actually does drive me really nuts is the name. It should be a Stone Collection Hut rather than a workshop for tools, which they would be far more likely to work on back at central camp.

Not possible for the Work Mule. The Llama Worker might be able to, but I think the other animal workers cannot build that.

The work mule cannot build Stone Tool Workshops huh? That's actually a bug I'd think. Llamas come up earlier so maybe the Work Mule was left without that ability because they were expected to only need to make Mountain Mines.

Perhaps, but mountains being inaccessible until Medieval is extremely strict (Hannibal, anyone?).

Edit: Sorry for the double post, but the first post had vanished suddenly. And why isn't it possible to insert quotes in an edit?

Drives me nuts you can't insert quotes in an edit but the whole quote system is such an upgrade that I can forgive the limitation.

That's a different question though, but I agree, there should be a very limited but possible way to cross mountain ranges early.

Perhaps mountaineering tech should come earlier, and mountain mine unlocked later.
Or perhaps we should have a cross mountain commander (or attached general) promo that is unlocked earlier than mountaineering tech.
Or perhaps we should have a wonder, that is unlocked earlier, that gives units the ability to cross peaks. (Provides a leader trait that can have that effect, or something.)
Or perhaps we should have 100% terrain damage on peaks, have several new promos that reduce that damage, and let them always be crossable.

Potentially a big project, and not easy to decide the correct path just like that either. ^^

We DO have promotions for commanders, including for the warlords and for any unit with a General attached and many heroes, that allows the unit to lead any other units into the peak plot it moves into, granting access to other units because he's there. There are also some individual promotions that can be accessed to allow for independent movement onto a peak by that unit. I don't think we should try to model this any more intensively than has already been done. The work mule and the work llama have the special ability to get onto a peak early but if you can get a leader that can enable other units to move onto a peak, you can get ANY kind of worker up there to route and improve the plot.

If a resource is on a mountain tile the stone gatherer should be able to access it. After all the deposits may be at the base of the mountain and not higher up.

I agree so long as the stone tools workshop (which I'd prefer was a stone gatherer) can do the same on any other territory. I don't want to make a different type of Stone Tools Workshop for peaks.

 

[Toffer90]

If a resource is on a mountain tile the stone gatherer should be able to access it. After all the deposits may be at the base of the mountain and not higher up.

I feel that special case is better represented, in game-terms, by having the bonus placed on the hill/flatland adjacent to the peak plot.

We DO have promotions for commanders, including for the warlords and for any unit with a General attached and many heroes, that allows the unit to lead any other units into the peak plot it moves into, granting access to other units because he's there.

I'm well aware, my point was simply that those promotions are unlocked at mountaineering tech (Edit: I wrongly assumed, as tmv just complained that mountains were inaccessible until medieval era.).

@Thunderbrd: Btw. how would terrain damage on peaks work if the peak terrain is sharing plot with another terrain that has damage, e.g. Desert Peak.
Would the damage stack correctly?
If a unit has the promotion that negates terrain damage from desert, would it then also negate the terrain damage from the peak that is on a desert plot, or would the terrain damage be reduced by the amount from the desert terrain component?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Pure iron, gold, copper and manganese have been worked from before 5,000BCE or 7,000 years ago. They were hammered into the shape needed. No smelting or refining or casting needed. We discussed this way back before coming to the way it is in C2C.

BtW Pollution from copper working in the region of Spain is detectable in Greenland glacier deposits going back 5,000+ years.