JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Way higher, but I've just committed a reduction for Upgrades.
Still have to wade thru the arguments over Production costs being so high all over the Mod.
Single Player bugs and crashes v37 plus (SVN) - After the 24th of December 2016
- Thread starter Dancing Hoskuld
- Start date
Still have to wade thru the arguments over Production costs being so high all over the Mod.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Actually, with the inclusion of the new tag on handicaps for iConstructPercent and iTrainPercent, it hiked up a lot at Nightmare. Noble was the only setting to go unchanged. You were the one to point out to me that iConstructPercent didn't exist for HandicapInfos so I'm not sure why you'd think a tag that never existed before could've been set at a particular amount.
There might be something a little funny still since you, at Immortal level with your game, feel that there's been an increase still in the unit training and building construction amounts because while those went UP to 120% (from what would've been a non-value of 100%) at Immortal, the overall global adjustment went down 20%, which should have been pretty close to the same in the end except that the order of calculations changed to be the same order as we have in tech cost calculations. Honestly though, that really should have reduced the end volumes if anything I'd think.
Previous calculation process:
- Take an example base cost of 200,
- Multiply it by the base global BUILDING_PRODUCTION_PERCENT (which was 100) - now 20000
- then Divide by 100 - returns to 200
- then Multiply it by a Gamespeed Modifier (Normal) of 100 - now 20000
- then Divide by 100 - back to 200
- then Multiply by the Era Modifier (Prehistoric was 70%, now 60%, Ancient was 80%, now 80%, Classical was 100%, now 90% - from here we're increasingly much cheaper now per era than we were over a week ago) Let's say we're in Classical 100. - now we're up to 20000.
- then divide by 100 - returns to 200.
- if we're a Human player, we're done. 200.
New calculation method:
- Take an example base cost of 200,
- then Multiply it by a Gamespeed Modifier (Normal) of 100 - now 20000
- then Divide by 100 - back to 200
- Then we find the generic combined modifier(GCM)
- GCM Starts as the Handicap Modifier (the new one), which, on Immortal is 120
- Subtract 100 from the GCM, making the GCM 20.
- Add the global BUILDING_PRODUCTION_PERCENT (which is WAS 100, now is 80). Now we're at a GCM of 100.
- Subtract 100 from the GCM. We're back to 0.
- Add the Era Modifier (using the examples above, let's say we're in the Classical Era still and it's now 90). GCM is now 90.
- Subtract 100 from the GCM. We're down to -10.
- Then if the GCM is 0 we do nothing further there, if positive, we go about a different method slightly but if negative, we multiply the GCM by -1. This makes our GCM now 10.
- Then add 100 to the GCM. Now we are at 110.
- Then take production and multiply by 100. Production is now at 20000.
- Then Divide production by the GCM. 20000/110. We come up with 181 (with a decimal but the code discards all that completely.)
- If you're a Human player, we're done. We're at 181.
Let's look at another model:
Same base, same Classical era assumption, but now we're on Nightmare Mode and Marathon instead.
Previous calculation process:
- Take an example base cost of 200,
- Multiply it by the base global BUILDING_PRODUCTION_PERCENT (which was 100) - now 20000
- then Divide by 100 - returns to 200
- then Multiply it by a Gamespeed Modifier (Marathon) of 335- now 67000
- then Divide by 100 - gives us a new base of 670
- then Multiply by the Era Modifier (Classical was 100%, now 90%) Let's say we're in Classical 100. - now we're up to 67000.
- then divide by 100 - returns to 670.
- if we're a Human player, we're done. 670.
New calculation method:
- Take an example base cost of 200,
- then Multiply it by a Gamespeed Modifier (Marathon) of 335 - now 67000
- then Divide by 100 - back to 670
- Then we find the generic combined modifier(GCM)
- GCM Starts as the Handicap Modifier (the new one), which, on Nightmare is 225
- Subtract 100 from the GCM, making the GCM 125.
- Add the global BUILDING_PRODUCTION_PERCENT (which is WAS 100, now is 80). Now we're at a GCM of 205.
- Subtract 100 from the GCM. We're at 105.
- Add the Era Modifier (using the examples above, let's say we're in the Classical Era still and it's now 90). GCM is now 195.
- Subtract 100 from the GCM. We're down to 95.
- Then if the GCM is 0 we do nothing further there. We've seen negative's method. With positive we add 100 to the GCM. GCM is now 195.
- Then Multiply the GCM by the production amount so far (195 * GCM) = 130650 production.
- Then Divide production amount by 100 and we have 1306 (would've been 1306.5 but the decimal was dropped.)
- If you're a Human player, we're done. We're at 1306. Keep in mind a lot of that was from the step up to marathon (from 100 at noble to 335 at marathon). But it does add a new extra healthy challenge to nightmare mode that it should've had all along.
If y'all want to keep running numbers,we can do this all day. Math is the better illuminator than guesswork based on impressions and hunches. This proves (and mind you, I walked through the code to give these examples) that MOST games have actually had a reduction. Only games of Deity and Nightmare have had the building costs go up due to handicap. Immortal's adjustment was countered by the global. Thus everything else below that is less expensive by difficulty. Furthermore, the prehistoric has become 10% more expensive recently (though again most games are still going to pan out cheaper) and all eras above that have reduced in cost.
Now that I've spent 3 hours on this, can I honestly ask if I can make this any easier to see how the numbers work out? The ONLY difference in adjustments in Units that differs from those examples above is that I added a new global for games with Size Matters and if you are on SM, you have 10% less cost. (Replaces the global modifier step with a different number.)
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Also, thanks for respecting my opinion on that. I'll have to play a game or two before I get to wanting to argue about it. Keep in mind also that building a unit outright is going to cost a lot more production than the difference between the last type of unit and the newest. And we do have wonders that reduce upgrade costs significantly as well as promotions that you've just made next to worthless.
Also, not to jump into the bickering here but the change to make production costs adapt to difficulty setting had absolutely nothing at all to do with anything about the crime control units. It had everything to do with DH saying, for the last 2 months while he's been playtesting, that his game on Noble difficulty level was experiencing an extremely difficult time with building and unit production keeping up at all with the technology progression through the game. You and I tested on Immortal and it seemed fine so it was odd to hear that he was having trouble. So just recently, hearing him complain about it again since I wanted to make an adjustment to the production delivery system on some trade units, I realized we really may have a serious problem.
Then we discussed it and found out that there IS no scaling of production costs from difficulty settings. THUS since research DOES scale from that source, we need production costs to be able to scale there equally.
So how you got the impression that this somehow comes about from anything we've done for LE units or planned to do for LE units is completely beyond me. It's OK you got that impression... not saying this angrily, just correcting the record.
Last edited:
What are wonders and promotions, that reduce unit upgrade costs?
And at what techs are they unlocked?
I wasn't aware, that even we had those
Edit: looks like only Shinto religion buildings have upgrade discounts.
There were multiple buildings with <iUpgradeDiscount>0</iUpgradeDiscount> - removed those from search results.
There are 16 promotions with upgrade discounts.
Spoiler :
Spoiler List of Upgrade Cost reducing promotions. :
Spoiler Upgrade cost reducing promos in screenshots :
Joseph and Thunderbird, how do you play with promotions?
Long term planning to get certain promotions, like those reducing upgrade costs, or just pick promotions, that are useful now?
Last edited:
Septimius
Warlord
I think that you may just have broken my game with some of the construction price hikes... Nightmare on the slowest speed.
I'm seeing an increase to double the previous production time. Everything now costs well into the 3000s production and beyond. A mere town watchman costs 2500 production...
Basically you've doubled the time it takes to make anything.
I like a good bit of punishment (especially because the AI in civ is traditionally bad), but I don't like to waste my time endlessly. The game's turnover time is simply way too long to support this kind of build time. So in my opinion you should just scrap the slowest speed and remove nightmare (unless this extreme price hike isn't intended obviously), you've basically broken both. I say this as a nightmare player over the last 2-3 years, so I feel somewhat experienced at it.
Or something is broken in my game specifically.
Save included if you want to have a look at the price range.
I'm seeing an increase to double the previous production time. Everything now costs well into the 3000s production and beyond. A mere town watchman costs 2500 production...
Basically you've doubled the time it takes to make anything.
I like a good bit of punishment (especially because the AI in civ is traditionally bad), but I don't like to waste my time endlessly. The game's turnover time is simply way too long to support this kind of build time. So in my opinion you should just scrap the slowest speed and remove nightmare (unless this extreme price hike isn't intended obviously), you've basically broken both. I say this as a nightmare player over the last 2-3 years, so I feel somewhat experienced at it.
Or something is broken in my game specifically.
Save included if you want to have a look at the price range.
Last edited:
Raledon
Warlord
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2008
- Messages
- 236
The production costs were effectively doubled at nightmare, and the research speed has been improved (compared to a month or two. I think Joseph said it was reverted, but I didn't notice it). This creates three major problems, beyond the basic "game is harder":
1) Building's ROI is a lot worse, and in some senses, certain buildings should be removed. I think we've had some complaints that certain buildings are not worth their cost already. Now that their cost is doubled, they might have a negative value.
2) Your research (especially with TD) might be so fast that building certain buildings will end only after they are obsolete. It was hard to build new cities before the update, now it'll take a lot longer. If I tried to build 5 trackers, I might have researched hunters before the 5 has finished.
3) To me personally, and I suspect Septimius and Noriad might agree, it's boring. Spending 30 turns on constructing a wonder (nightmare, large, normal) in your capital, even if the right choice, is boring. So is spending 8 turns on building a tracker.
In general, I prefer to spend my time deciding what to do, instead of click "end turn" to wait for it to happen. This is doubly so in C2C, where time between turns is quite long.
I feel like the game should be harder because the opponents are stronger, instead of shooting myself in the leg to give them a better chance. I guess I could lower the difficulty to diety, but it has various other effects, while the main issue is specifically production speed.
An option to keep the "hard" part and fix this issue might be to reduce the cost of construction for the AI, instead of raising it for the players. The AI will do better compared to the player, but the player wouldn't feel it's because he is bad/slow, but due to the AI being better.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Please will you guys just stop with this. I just was pointing out that the LE problem started a Chain of Events that has now lead to the Mod having all it's Costs more than Doubled on any game speed. So stop with this pin the tail on this
donkey Okay?! You are actually the one who started this claim that I said this, which was then picked up by Toffer and added too. But enough of that tired old subject.Last night I went into EraInfos and set the ITrain and iConstruct values from 100 to 0. Before I did this in the snail game I've been reporting from a Settler cost 2660
to build. After reduce the Era cost from these 2 modifier the Cost of building a Settler only fell to 2206. But because I was not feeling well I stopped there and went to bed. I planned on dropping the same Tags in HandicapInfos to see what further effects it would give. And then move on to GS.This new formula and the new additions of iTrain iConstruct in various files/formulas Has More Than Doubled the costs to build units or buildings. It is very obvious from the observations of Noriad2, Sepitmus, and myself that something is horribly broken.
All you C++ modders need to get your heads together and do 1 of 2 things, either Revert All these machinations to the game you have recently done, Or 2. figure out why you have made the Costs completely broken. It is really that simple of a choice.
Yes the Player will also feel Bad because It's Just Not NM Deity. It's the Whole Mod now. Please broaden your perspective, Please.
Last edited:
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
This is what I have been reporting. But you are the Only NMDeity player that uses Normal GS. Noriad uses Snail, and Septimus Eternity. This reaffirms my claims that the new formula and/or the new Tags in certain files have caused this problem.
T-brd it is Not just a simple readjustment by the player to the cumulative effects of the ReCosting projects. So stop going there. Please! As my dad the master mechanic always said, If you still have problems after a repair, 1st go back and recheck/rework what you did last. Then work from there."
@Raledon,
We were getting the AI to be "smarter" before this chain of events. But now the "code" is broken. It's not certain buildings should be removed. That is obfuscation of the real problem. Nor is it that NM Deity was doubled alone. It was not by itself the only affected part of the game.
C'mon guys open your eyes! Please!??
As for me I'm going to revert my games svn Back to Pre Formula change version till this is straightened out. And the Mod's new Version can not be released in this Broken state.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
This is Not proof. The Proof is in actual game play. Your math can say anything it wants to Especially if a mistake is taken to be correct. Please don't go there. Cause your math has a hole somewhere. You just have not found it yet.
I am reverting Back to 9873. Before you started this chain of events: From your message log for SVN 9874. Game was somewhat playable with this SVN version.
You can discount me all you want, I'm used to it. But I'm not the only voice saying something is Bad Wrong. For the Whole Mod, not just NMD either, all GS and All Diff have been affected. I can not emphasize this enough.
You will either listen and figure it out. Or you won't. I've told you what is going on.
Last edited:
@Thunderbrd can BUILDING_PRODUCTION_PERCENT (and other such global cost modifiers) have final say (alternatively could be used as multiplication of raw cost)?
That is whatever is used to calculate costs in would be multiplied by BUILDING_PRODUCTION_PERCENT and divided by 100 at the end.
Such global modifier would be consistent with its value.
Now its mixed with era and handicap modifiers.
Can iconstruct/itrain be flattened by some amount in handicap info?
By the way didn't you want to remove tech cost modifiers from map size?
Currently players on high difficulties are having hard time with building buildings and units.
I checked most extreme settings for Saddler and its unlocking tech.
Settler/Duel/Normal: 51/5
Noble/Standard/Normal: 65/52
Nightmare/Gigantic/Eternity: 1414/3380
Settler/Standard/Normal: 51/31
Nightmare/Standard/Normal: 171/117
Noble/Duel/Normal: 65/26
Noble/Gigantic/Normal: 65/104
Noble/Standard/Eternity: 538/1040
That is whatever is used to calculate costs in would be multiplied by BUILDING_PRODUCTION_PERCENT and divided by 100 at the end.
Such global modifier would be consistent with its value.
Now its mixed with era and handicap modifiers.
Can iconstruct/itrain be flattened by some amount in handicap info?
By the way didn't you want to remove tech cost modifiers from map size?
Currently players on high difficulties are having hard time with building buildings and units.
I checked most extreme settings for Saddler and its unlocking tech.
Settler/Duel/Normal: 51
/5Noble/Standard/Normal: 65
/52Nightmare/Gigantic/Eternity: 1414
/3380Settler/Standard/Normal: 51
/31Nightmare/Standard/Normal: 171
/117Noble/Duel/Normal: 65
/26Noble/Gigantic/Normal: 65
/104Noble/Standard/Eternity: 538
/1040Spoiler :
Last edited:
Raledon
Warlord
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2008
- Messages
- 236
I was under the impression that after the couple of fixes that has were already implemented, the issue has been fixed for other difficulties. I usually don't play on the other difficulties, so I didn't know it's still such an issue at them. I did know the AI wasn't as affected by it (since it gets the Noble handicap), as it completed wonders in record time.
In regards to the buildings, it was to emphasize how some buildings badly balanced, that with the added cost they'd be better removed than built. I agree it's an obfuscation of other issues.
Both of us are fully in agreement that the production costs, at this moment, are too high.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
I am going to start UPloading if thats ok, if any changes come i can delete upload and start over, i believe .. . .
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
No... you're just not seeing the implications for what they are. Yes, Nightmare has doubled. If you want to bring it back under control then not only the production modifiers must change, the other scaling factors have also been revealed to be out of whack. Nightmare, as a result, was previously the easiest setting where keeping up with your research was concerned. What nightmare is experiencing now. along with every other difficulty level, is the same ratio of research cost to production cost that Noble was experiencing all along. Actually, 20% less production cost vs research and a lot less still the farther the game is progressing.
No wonder DH was having such a huge problem, huh? So these machinations have revealed the underlying flaws in the original ratio established rather than breaking the game. Perhaps we need to reconsider the baseline ratio between production and research huh?
You can use that formula to work out exactly what the production costs should be for any building on any setting. Go prove it to yourself before ranting about it being flawed. (Units have a few MINOR factors that haven't been mentioned in their formula but it's nothing that will create common adjustments - just enough that they might not be as accurate hand calculating in-game.) THEN, consider how we've been counterintuitively been making Noble one of the hardest settings because you can get techs at a lightning pace but your production costs are the same as they are at every other difficulty setting.
Noriad2
Emperor
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2014
- Messages
- 1,153
hum "keeping up with your research" is not what makes a game challenging. If research races ahead it only gives you the better building options and civics sooner. But indeed it is a good thing if research speed and construction speed are somewhat relative to each other.
However I've stopped playing the latest SVN (large map/nightmare/snail) because the cost-to-benefit ratio of buildings has become so bad that it is near pointless to build most of the economic buildings. It takes hundreds of turns just to get back the investment. I prefer the production costs of buildings and units as they were a week or so ago, those were well-balanced.
However I've stopped playing the latest SVN (large map/nightmare/snail) because the cost-to-benefit ratio of buildings has become so bad that it is near pointless to build most of the economic buildings. It takes hundreds of turns just to get back the investment. I prefer the production costs of buildings and units as they were a week or so ago, those were well-balanced.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
You can as pissy as you want.
Who's ranting in bold huge capital letters. You are. I play the mod. I have proven it to myself. You on the other hand have not.
I won't be using your New system. Nor will I continue to do any more work on this Mod, until this is fixed. I have reverted to 9873 until you fix this massively Major problem that you refuse to listen too. (See Noriad2 post above mine.)
Side note: 9893 will not Delete completely from my computer. It keeps throwing up errors. I have even went to Avast AV to try to fix this problem. Have you introduced a virus?
Anyway See ya around. Bye now.
Last edited:
@Thunderbrd research/production ratio isn't constant even if you keep all other things constant:
Settler/Standard/Normal: 51/31 -> 1.65
Noble/Standard/Normal: 65/52 -> 1.25
Nightmare/Standard/Normal: 171/117 -> 1.46
9893 Added TPEHEP's Vertical map to the Private Maps - it was your commit Joseph
And there aren't any virus.
Settler/Standard/Normal: 51
/31 -> 1.65Noble/Standard/Normal: 65
/52 -> 1.25Nightmare/Standard/Normal: 171
/117 -> 1.469893 Added TPEHEP's Vertical map to the Private Maps - it was your commit Joseph
And there aren't any virus.
Last edited:
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Where is the differing variable then? I have not looked as closely at the research numbers assigned.@Thunderbrd research/production ratio isn't constant even if you keep all other things constant:
Settler/Standard/Normal: 51
Noble/Standard/Normal: 65
Nightmare/Standard/Normal: 171
9893 Added TPEHEP's Vertical map to the Private Maps - it was your commit Joseph
For Research Difficulty factor is added to Mapsize factor.
For Production Difficulty factor is summed with Global and Era factor.
This means they are effectively different numbers for further processing.
If you made Difficulty and Global factors multipliers to base or end value, then they would behave exactly as you wanted.
Alternatively you could make Difficulty factor sum with same things for research and production.
Last edited:
We could simply set the iConstructPercent and iTrainPercent to 100% for all difficulties in CIV4HandicapInfo.xml just for the release of v38, and start tweaking stuff after v38 is released.
That way everything would return to how Joseph is used to having it, and he will be in control of adjusting those two tags along with possible changes in the iResearchPercent the way he see fit for v39.
Just a suggestion.
On a side note:
In the "my take on stuff" modmod I have all those three tags (yes, even the iResearchPercent) set to 100% for all difficulties except for "settler" which is the difficulty barbarians/neanderthals are using in my modmod.
Difficulty is imo better adjusted by other means than changing hammer and beaker cost in the same way as gamespeed does it. I like to keep things simple like that, reserving building/research/training turn time for the gamespeed options.
The introduction of iConstructPercent and iTrainPercent has made me consider a possible small increment step of 5% increase on all three tags for each difficulty, but when I only had the research tag it was out of the question to have it at anything other than 100%.
That way everything would return to how Joseph is used to having it, and he will be in control of adjusting those two tags along with possible changes in the iResearchPercent the way he see fit for v39.
Just a suggestion.
On a side note:
In the "my take on stuff" modmod I have all those three tags (yes, even the iResearchPercent) set to 100% for all difficulties except for "settler" which is the difficulty barbarians/neanderthals are using in my modmod.
Difficulty is imo better adjusted by other means than changing hammer and beaker cost in the same way as gamespeed does it. I like to keep things simple like that, reserving building/research/training turn time for the gamespeed options.
The introduction of iConstructPercent and iTrainPercent has made me consider a possible small increment step of 5% increase on all three tags for each difficulty, but when I only had the research tag it was out of the question to have it at anything other than 100%.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Which is thus to say nightmare was better balanced between research and construction than the rest of the settings. I suggest we drop the production cost global to zero if we're not going to change research rates.
Rax makes a point to further figure out what is not being taken into account in that ratio though.
But if you can't build enough to keep up with research you can't take care of many basic needs. Refer to tests run by other players on easier settings turned difficult for this reason, including joseph when he whines about upgrades being too expensive. If you can't keep the basics upgraded and things are obsoleting faster than you can replace them than that fouls up play.
So the easy fix here is to reduce the production global until you find the right balance again. Then that balance applies everywhere now.
Similar threads
- Sticky
- Sticky
