Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I've asked. I'll update on that when I get an answer.
Single Player bugs and crashes v38 plus (SVN) - After the 20th of February 2018
- Thread starter Dancing Hoskuld
- Start date
Updated and have been using SVN 10358. Turn times are at the 4 minute 5 sec mark (+/- 5 secs). Re-Calc took 8 min 4 sec.. Even played 2 turns in a row without manually saving as a test and it has passed so far.
Pre SVN 10358 turn times were in the 4 min 45 sec (+/- 5 sec) range.
Long Game is playable again.
Reading this makes me think i'am crazy.
Are you really happy about being able to play that game with every turn taking over 4 minutes?????
Did you found way to halve turn times?Reading this makes me think i'am crazy.
Are you really happy about being able to play that game with every turn taking over 4 minutes?????
He has 8 civs and they are spread in Medieval - Industrial eras.
It is quite crazy, we really need to work on optimizations and even stripping content that is not worth the strain, rather than constantly adding new content.Reading this makes me think i'am crazy.
Are you really happy about being able to play that game with every turn taking over 4 minutes?????
The huge amount of animals on the map is a major cause for the turn times, reducing that amount will go a long way, but that is but one of hundreds of angles of attack.
Did you found way to halve turn times?
He has 8 civs and they are spread in Medieval - Industrial eras.
At the moment i can't really do any Caveman2Cosmos dll programming because i only have a laptop. Without a new and fast desktop pc i wouldn't want to do any Caveman2Cosmos programming work because everything takes too long.
Turn time improvements are also very frustrating because they take a long time to do and immediately after they are in the svn some new turn time increasing things will be added.
@Dancing Hoskuld would probably disagree and say that there should be twice as many animals on the map. That's why i stopped thinking about changing anything in that area.
Sadly if you want to reduce the number of anything you can only do that in a modmod because in Caveman2Cosmos only adding something is valid.
Quite a defeatist attitude. ^^
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
By the time in the game that he's at, the complexity is pretty obvious why it would be taking that long and turn times aren't always going to be extended to that degree. There are a number of big wars taking place. Big wars, especially the beginning of them when large stacks are heading into battle, are going to demand long evaluations. So yes, at some points during the game, a 4 min wait when it takes over half an hour to take a turn is pretty acceptable. You need the break in play for a moment between turns yourself. We aren't talking about the beginning of the game here. And a turn based strategy game is not an RCS. Imagine the turn wait there would be if you were playing with friends each taking their turns in succession - all this really is is a gigantically complex board game, perhaps the most complex ever made in all history. Doesn't kill my enjoyment to have to wait a little when it gets intricate enough to warrant it.
And yet still, yes, there are things that can be done and a hundred angles to attack turn delays from. There are a number of places that could possibly be improved with that turn and numerous hints as to where some things that might not be right are causing delays, but let's be honest, delays are nothing to some of the outright accounting errors the game is currently making and imbalance problems in the game design that still need to be addressed.
The number of animals on the map is just right - depending on the game speed. It scales far too dramatically so that if you're playing anything faster than Marathon it seems to get clogged with animals pretty quick. I find on Marathon, the frequency of animal encounters is consistent and steady but not overwhelming. I'd almost like to just turn off the scaling on that, make sure it's dialed into the numerics we see on Marathon, and see if it really presents any problems to gameplay to not scale that facet of the game. It seems to present more problems to scale it than it would not to.
And yet still, yes, there are things that can be done and a hundred angles to attack turn delays from. There are a number of places that could possibly be improved with that turn and numerous hints as to where some things that might not be right are causing delays, but let's be honest, delays are nothing to some of the outright accounting errors the game is currently making and imbalance problems in the game design that still need to be addressed.
The number of animals on the map is just right - depending on the game speed. It scales far too dramatically so that if you're playing anything faster than Marathon it seems to get clogged with animals pretty quick. I find on Marathon, the frequency of animal encounters is consistent and steady but not overwhelming. I'd almost like to just turn off the scaling on that, make sure it's dialed into the numerics we see on Marathon, and see if it really presents any problems to gameplay to not scale that facet of the game. It seems to present more problems to scale it than it would not to.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Well not really. BUt not much I can do about it. Large map, 7 AI on Immortal on Long Game Speed.Reading this makes me think i'am crazy.
Are you really happy about being able to play that game with every turn taking over 4 minutes?????
I've just reached the Medieval Era (next to last one of 8 Civs in this game). I know for certain that 2 of the AI are in Mid Industrial placing them 2 1/2 Eras ahead of me. 2 others are in the Ren Era. and 2 on my continent are almost to the Ren Era as well. I just passed the last Civ, the Mayans, to get out of last place. All Civs have at least 25 to 30 cities. I have 28 now. I'm at war with the Iroquois, he declared on me and had the Leader Mongolia also declare. Before that Cleopatra and Korea Declared on me. I have yet to get Ocean faring ships and they have been showing up on my coasts with frigates, sloops of war. Theodora who I finally got Open Borders with is running around in Paddle Steamers and Iron frigates.
It is also a game that I'm using to see how to adjust Civics. Some that I want to yet adjust. Others to see how they play out with the adjustments that have been made in a real game.
I never expected that the AI would race ahead 2+ Eras in tech though. That was a bit of a shocker for an Immortal C2C game. More what I used to expect from a Deity Game or NM Deity.
But it is playable. That counts a lot for what I need from it.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
You have proof of this? Isn't it more Option Choices made in this area? If you use the Option to let the NPCs war amongst themselves even on Blitz (1000 turns) the animals can get quite sparse. The Barbs, Neanders, and Highest level Predators eat up the 2 lowest tier really fast. I like using just the Reckless Animal Option of all the Animal Option available most of the time. Occasionally I will activate the No Peace Among NPCs as well.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
It's just what I've witnessed in seeing the games of others as well as some first hand. When the map fills with animals it causes processing problems, some of which have become actual bugs to address that we've had to scale back overall spawn rates to manage, which if we have to keep doing that isn't fair to more balanced speeds.
Not to mention the scaling changes the whole strategic nature of the hunting side of the game so that you don't have a consistent play experience. It's pretty dramatic. When we played our quicker MP games, my hunters, even military units in the field, could barely stay alive because they couldn't get time to heal. Maybe that's how some prefer it but is that preference based on the same set of preferences that make a person choose a faster or longer gamespeed? I don't think that's likely to be true.
If we're going to have tons of animals or not have tons of animals, that itself should perhaps be another option, as it is in FFH2.
Sure existing options have a huge influence on results, but I'm finding that gamespeed's scaling influence is far too dramatic. At the moment I'm not sure if that's automatically scaled or if it's scaled more manually by values in the XML somewhere. The problem goes to both ends of the scale and for opposite reasons. If the animals are as infrequent on the longest gamespeeds compared to a mid-range speed as they are frequent on the fastest compared to mid-range speed, then you'd hardly ever see animals at all on the longest gamespeeds, and those longest speeds really need the interactivity levels to stay up for the sake of enjoyment.
From what I'm seeing from current observations of games my wife is playing, even the difference between Epic and Marathon is a stark contrast where Epic has a LOT more animals spawning than Marathon. Extrapolating out that ratio of difference suggests why I see some players posting games with some 5 animals on every plot.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
And here in lies a Big rub, the longer GS distort the game play of C2C and have for years. And it is a Fallacy of opinion and Game design to say the majority of player want to play 12,000 turns or more. You did not have this exacerbated problem when the range of GS was 1,000 turns to 8,000 turns. The proof was there for all to see when those were in use. Heck it was not even as much a problem when the 1st 5 went 1,000 to 9,000 turns with Eternity at 12,000. Only the last 2GS longest at those old levels distorted gameplay in this area (and others as well). How quickly we forget.Or purposefully turn a blind eye. As long as you keep pushing these exaggerated GS lengths you will have these problems. And you will cause another when you decide to eliminate the 2 fastest to support your purported scaling objective. You will have players leave the game. Marathon at 8,000 turns is not the Median GS or the best either. But it Is what is being pushed to the newer audience. Like Snail was years ago and it was only 6,000 turns then. No this problem was made worse when you adopted Toffer's GS set from his Modmod. And you did it without a player base consensus too.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I'm not saying that. I'm saying all gamespeeds can be balanced. It's ok to strive for that. Is it really that painful to try to make the game work for a wider range of preferences? I don't understand why you can't let those who like longer speeds go on and enjoy them without constantly trying to vouch to take it away from them. I don't see where it matters if they are 'majority' of players or not. It's possible to make it work for all. TBH, the bigger imbalance and coding problem takes place on faster speeds with the HUGE spawn rates seen there. I was just saying that it's different problems on both ends of the scale.
As I said, it's much more problematic what we have on the faster end. The scaling from one speed to the next is simply too severe in spawning. It's a very noticeable difference from any gamespeed to even one shift away. Just saying it's not scaling gradually enough, not nearly, and perhaps it shouldn't scale at all.
If you recall, I asked for the fastest current gamespeed to be added recently. I'm not at all advocating eliminating ANY gamespeeds. A wider array means wider mod appeal. Period. But we can't let scaling ruin the experience at any end of the scale.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Re-Calc and Trun times update after updating to SVN 10364 today.
Re-Calc went from 8:39 to 5:38, a 3 min reduction. WooHoo
Turn times before Update 5:45 after update 1st turn after Re-Calc 6:13. 2nd turn 7:21. 3rd turn 6:22
To play 3 turns adding in the Re-Calc it has taken almost 2 hours.
Re-Calc went from 8:39 to 5:38, a 3 min reduction. WooHoo
Turn times before Update 5:45 after update 1st turn after Re-Calc 6:13. 2nd turn 7:21. 3rd turn 6:22
To play 3 turns adding in the Re-Calc it has taken almost 2 hours.
'You are yourself disproving your initial statement "The number of animals on the map is just right" in this paragraph.
I think animal spawn is just right for eternity and you think it is just right for marathon, the "just right" we are expressing now is a subjective notion, while the objective version of it would be to say that it is just right for all game settings; which it is clearly not.
There is a clear imbalance between the gamespeeds.
Removing the scaling entirely will just turn the problem on it's head, too few animals on the fastest and too many on the slowest gamespeeds.
What we need is a weak scaling, I suggested a formula the last time we discussed gamespeed scaling of spawns. Edit: Link
Map size is also a factor in the too many animals on the map issue, large maps should for performance sake ideally have less animal density than small maps.
We may want to make stricter max limits to how many of one specific units can exist on the map before the spawn of that unit becomes restricted.
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Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I'm kinda not getting why there needs to be more animals per square on a faster game speed than there are on a slower one. I mean, yes you don't have as much time to hunt them on faster GSs before the game moves on, but for the experience of units hunting itself, should it really differ? The units don't move any faster or slower and they don't heal any faster or slower. Just means that the blitzing abilities of more powerful hunters matters more on a faster gamespeed as does strength because the healing rate gets tested. Hunting rewards themselves scale, except for the subduals themselves, don't they?
I would be willing to install a softer scaling factor so I'll look into your link.
Perhaps for performance's sake one would want to cut down on spawn rates on larger maps but then you're scaling entirely the opposite way you'd want to if you wanted hunting to be roughly consistent between sizes.
I do realize there's going to be variations of opinion on how many spawns there are but I'm trying to say that the variation maybe shouldn't be made by speed or size but by a more direct variation option if there's enough disagreement on the subject to warrant it. As Joseph says, there's a lot of variation differentiation simply with options we have. Still, maybe for the sake of the width of capture potential, faster games do need a LITTLE more density on the map.
Faster gamespeeds are supposed to be more hectic than the slow ones, enemy skirmishes may only happen once every 10 turn on eternity while it may happen every turn on normal, enemy invasion forces will come more frequent on faster gamespeeds than on slow ones. etc.etc. There will be more activity and battle per turn in a fast gamespeed game than in a slow one, there are less dead turns and each plot will be empty for shorter amount of turns before a new unit comes strolling around.
Simply consider this simple constructed scenario: There are two cities, one is continually training a swordman and sending it on the same path every time to attack the other city. That path will have less empty tiles between the swordsmen on a fast gamespeeds than on a slow one. When the first swordsman reach the other city, at that point, there will be more swordsmen on the path between the two cities on a fast gamespeed than a slow one.
That is the core of my argument for why there should be a greater animal density on the map on a faster gamespeed than on a slow one, the whole point of the fast gamespeed is to make the game more hectic.
If the animal spawn rate I enjoy on eternity were to be the same in a Normal gamespeed game I would find it hard to fight and destroy 20 animals throughout the prehistoric while I on eternity would fight and destroy hundreds of them throughout the prehistoric.
Right now there is 10x faster spawn on Normal than on eternity, that is clearly too much, but if it were as little as 2x-5x I believe it would be closer to perfection.
Simply consider this simple constructed scenario: There are two cities, one is continually training a swordman and sending it on the same path every time to attack the other city. That path will have less empty tiles between the swordsmen on a fast gamespeeds than on a slow one. When the first swordsman reach the other city, at that point, there will be more swordsmen on the path between the two cities on a fast gamespeed than a slow one.
That is the core of my argument for why there should be a greater animal density on the map on a faster gamespeed than on a slow one, the whole point of the fast gamespeed is to make the game more hectic.
If the animal spawn rate I enjoy on eternity were to be the same in a Normal gamespeed game I would find it hard to fight and destroy 20 animals throughout the prehistoric while I on eternity would fight and destroy hundreds of them throughout the prehistoric.
Right now there is 10x faster spawn on Normal than on eternity, that is clearly too much, but if it were as little as 2x-5x I believe it would be closer to perfection.
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Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Ran some numbers after finding the moment in the code where this is being adjusted and it seems straight up to me. We'll see how well it works. Trying the first formula first.
It's the other way around.
Normal has a 10 times higher spawn chance per turn as Eternity.
Was thinking "slower" but wrote "faster" in more than one sense. ^^
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