Single Player bugs and crashes v38 plus (SVN) - After the 20th of February 2018

[raxo2222]

@KaTiON_PT or @Toffer90 it appears pedia still doesn't display what civic CATEGORY given civic belongs, when tech says that civic is enabled

Maybe this was broken when ambiguity of links was fixed.

Spoiler :

It could be: Enables CIVIC (CIVIC_CATEGORY)

Improvements also could reference civic category in tooltip.

Spoiler :

 

[Snofru1]

Make sure in world builder that there aren't already resources where you are trying to use him. You can't place a resource where there is already one, even if you can't see it in the game.

That´s what I did and I already mentioned it.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@JosEPh_II tech leader is meant to be in Classical era by that time in your screenshot and in Monarch+ handicap players not always are tech leaders.
This is current tech and build (normal buildings) cost graph (Noble handicap for same costs for AI as player, Normal (x1) modifier).
View attachment 516077
Notice how each era section can be seen thanks to scaling in era infos.
There is shift, between X30 - X60, where exponential trend of tech costs slows down.
Buildings seems to have stable exponential tech cost trend from beginning of Ancient era.
<snip>

Your graph, Show what it is for Emperor and Immortal on Normal and Long GSs.

tech leader is meant to be in Classical era by that time in your screenshot and in Monarch+ handicap players not always are tech leaders.

Tell me something new Raxxo. The disparity in the tech level of the Tech Leader, which will be the AI, on these higher Difficulty levels is too much. The rate for research is too steep.

Your original Graph shows it plainly. And if you graph out the Monarch + handicap levels you will see the progression gets even more stilted than it needfs to be. I'll leave the graphing part to you. I don't have the computer skills to display one.

It's you alls new system and it's weighted too heavily atm in the AI's favor. And I'm Not asking for Big reductions to the scaling but it does need reduced.

Now if you start assuming that All Players will be using Tech Diffusion and/or WFL to level the playing field then you are skewing the whole system base, again imhpo.

 

[Toffer90]

@KaTiON_PT or @Toffer90 it appears pedia still doesn't display what civic CATEGORY given civic belongs, when tech says that civic is enabled

Maybe this was broken when ambiguity of links was fixed.

It was never set to display that there, so it would be strange that something that is not real somehow got broken.
KaT did work on adding the category information in certain places not too long ago, like in the diplomatic screen.

 

[Yudishtira]

@JosEPh_II tech leader is meant to be in Classical era by that time in your screenshot and in Monarch+ handicap players not always are tech leaders.

Why do you keep saying this as if everything is fine? Joseph clearly said that the tech leader was in late Medieval. This happens consistently over every Monarch+ game that has been reported: tech leader is always 1+ era ahead of where they should be. Isn't it about time you fixed it (so that your graphs reflect reality)?

 

[raxo2222]

Your graph, Show what it is for Emperor and Immortal on Normal and Long GSs.


Tell me something new Raxxo. The disparity in the tech level of the Tech Leader, which will be the AI, on these higher Difficulty levels is too much. The rate for research is too steep.

Your original Graph shows it plainly. And if you graph out the Monarch + handicap levels you will see the progression gets even more stilted than it needfs to be. I'll leave the graphing part to you. I don't have the computer skills to display one.

It's you alls new system and it's weighted too heavily atm in the AI's favor. And I'm Not asking for Big reductions to the scaling but it does need reduced.

Now if you start assuming that All Players will be using Tech Diffusion and/or WFL to level the playing field then you are skewing the whole system base, again imhpo.

For different speeds just multiply numbers at Y columns.
Divide numbers (different scaling for units, buildings and techs) to get arc for AI with handicaps.

For different handicaps divide that by AI handicap numbers - for players it will be exactly same, just AI will have shallower arc (units will be more cheapened than buildings which are more cheapened than techs).
Blue is techs and red is buildings.

Do you realize, that era multipliers affect both players and AI?

It was never set to display that there, so it would be strange that something that is not real somehow got broken.
KaT did work on adding the category information in certain places not too long ago, like in the diplomatic screen.

I thought this was done.
I suggested displaying civic category anywhere where civic is displayed.

 

[raxo2222]

Why do you keep saying this as if everything is fine? Joseph clearly said that the tech leader was in late Medieval. This happens consistently over every Monarch+ game that has been reported: tech leader is always 1+ era ahead of where they should be. Isn't it about time you fixed it (so that your graphs reflect reality)?

This graph just display how much buildings and units cost on Normal speed for players (and AI on noble).

If Monarch AI reaches Medieval when they should be in Classical era, then tech cost modifier in era infos must be even higher.

 

[Yudishtira]

This graph just display how much buildings and units cost on Normal speed for players (and AI on noble).

If Monarch AI reaches Medieval when they should be in Classical era, then tech cost modifier in era infos must be even higher.

That would be a start. However I also assert that the artificial disparity between the tech leader and the player seems too high - even with TD.

 

[raxo2222]

That would be a start. However I also assert that the artificial disparity between the tech leader and the player seems too high - even with TD.

@Toffer90 I guess you could reduce all steps for AI by 1.

 

[Toffer90]

We were discussing making difficulties easier by reducing the tech cost discount the AI get from the human player difficulty.
The discussion stopped short after I posted this post though, and forgot all about it shortly after. ^^

The AI has seen some important fixes and improvements since I revised the handicap xml in rev 9976.
I originally wanted iAIResearchPercent to increment with 2 so that deity was only at 90, but TB convinced me, more than once, to give the AI more research discount per difficulty level, it ended up at an increment of 5 so that deity was at 75.
Perhaps it is time to reduce it again? Should we start careful with an increment of 4 (80 at deity) or push it down to 3 (85 at deity) right away? 2 is probably still too low.

Raxo will you change the tech-cost modifier-increment for the AI from 5 to 3? I think that is a careful enough change considering the feedback on AI tech lead atm.

Edit: { Lol, we posted at the same time a request for the other to do the same thing...

@Toffer90 I guess you could reduce all steps for AI by 1.

I'm a bit distracted at the momeent, could you do it?
}

 

[raxo2222]

We were discussing making difficulties easier by reducing the tech cost discount the AI get from the human player difficulty.
The discussion stopped short after I posted this post though, and forgot all about it shortly after. ^^

Raxo will you change the tech-cost modifier-increment for the AI from 5 to 3? I think that is a careful enough change considering the feedback on AI tech lead atm.

Edit: { Lol, we posted at the same time a request for the other to do the same thing...
I'm a bit distracted at the momeent, could you do it?
}

Yes.

 

[Thunderbrd]

That´s what I did and I already mentioned it.

OK. I'd have to ask @Dancing Hoskuld what might have changed here. I did a tag to enable these actions and I'm wondering if there has been an effort to switch to using that tag. I didn't think any steps had been taken towards that yet.

That would be a start. However I also assert that the artificial disparity between the tech leader and the player seems too high - even with TD.

There is another distinct possibility here. And that is that the AI players are outplaying the player. Yes, the costs of their techs are a little less than they are for the player but it really isn't very severe. A quick look at the handicap infos shows the % adjustment to the tech costs for all AI players on a given handicap level. Those have not been tweaked for about a year. Some AI stupidity was fixed though. So the AI is playing better now.

We can try to reduce the severity of the AI handicap benefits and how they grow across the various handicap settings a bit, keeping normal as it is and then adjusting out at a percent or two less every level than the current 'steps' are assigned. It sounds like this should probably be done. But keep in mind that I'm also seeing a game that has reached the modern era show that the human player can and will eventually catch up and surpass the AI on Emperor level. That's a pretty tough level to be seeing the player stomping the AI here - though in the earlier game she did do pretty well and has experienced games that didn't go as well in those first stages.

This sort of discussion belongs in the balance thread.

Largely, I do want to insist that there is a big difference between adjusting the AI vs player tech costs and just overall cost adjustments by era, which have been taking place and may get more severe considering that with new eras, the turn costs are about 2 to reach a tech in modern when they should be about 6. I accept that she's ahead of the growth and success curve and has been able to wonder hog for a while thus the steamroll is in her favor, but it's still seeming that techs grow more and more severely undercost as the game progresses. Again, this affects BOTH human and AI equally.

 

[raxo2222]

We were discussing making difficulties easier by reducing the tech cost discount the AI get from the human player difficulty.
The discussion stopped short after I posted this post though, and forgot all about it shortly after. ^^

Raxo will you change the tech-cost modifier-increment for the AI from 5 to 3? I think that is a careful enough change considering the feedback on AI tech lead atm.

Edit: { Lol, we posted at the same time a request for the other to do the same thing...
I'm a bit distracted at the momeent, could you do it?
}

I adjusted tech steps for AI to 3 per step.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Do you realize, that era multipliers affect both players and AI?

I've been told different stories on so many parts of this system that I'm not sure what do what to whom and when.

Last I heard about the Era modifiers it was to make it tougher on the player.

Largely, I do want to insist that there is a big difference between adjusting the AI vs player tech costs and just overall cost adjustments by era, which have been taking place and may get more severe considering that with new eras, the turn costs are about 2 to reach a tech in modern when they should be about 6. I accept that she's ahead of the growth and success curve and has been able to wonder hog for a while thus the steamroll is in her favor, but it's still seeming that techs grow more and more severely undercost as the game progresses. Again, this affects BOTH human and AI equally.

And this game has Tech D and/or WFL turned On? I thought you said it did. IF it does Then you can not base your argument off that game at that stage as being the norm. Plus you have said that the player has hogged the Wonders. That too is a big factor in the skew.

If I were playing with TD On I would not be reporting this. Cuase I would be close to the Tech Leader in spite of your handicapping the player vs AI. And yes the AI is playing better, all the more reason to keep it balanced better. Not more reason to buff the AI with added bonuses in the files.

Maybe when you both play a game without the Tech buffs you might begin to see what is taking place. But until then if you use any research boosting Option your observations are skewed. And you really can not deny that either.

I just reached Classical Era in this Emperor Normal game. Check out the screen shots below. Dates, number of turns, AI met and their rankings and were most of them are in the tech tree. Remember I just finished researching Classical Lifestyle. Game settings are last 2 screenies.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Reduced <iAIResearchPercent> to step of 3 (step was 5 per handicap):
Prince/Monarch/Emperor/Immortal/Deity/Nightmare now has this tag of 97, 94, 91, 88, 85, 79, that is techs now will be cheaper by 3/6/9/12/15/21% for AI [/quote]

Why the bloody hell is the AI getting cheaper techs???

How many Eras does the AI Have To be Ahead of the player??? 3, 4, 5, ???. You keep doing this a players are going to quit playing if they feel they are going to get consistently steam rolled. SMH!

 

[Yudishtira]

TD and WFL are the two greatest tools for ensuring this kind of balance. Playing without them and expecting the balancing efforts to pander to you is like shooting out your tyres and then complaining about how your truck handles.

 

[Thunderbrd]

And this game has Tech D and/or WFL turned On? I thought you said it did

I said it doesn't matter because as the leader in every way she's getting no bonus from either one. She's only playing with Tech Diffusion and I suppose it might have helped her to catch up but equally it should be helping the AI now and they are 'still way behind'. I admit it probably would've been much tougher for her to GET ahead in the first place otherwise.

Plus you have said that the player has hogged the Wonders. That too is a big factor in the skew.

Only now that she is ahead. At the beginning, other nations were taking them all due to being ahead.

Why the bloody hell is the AI getting cheaper techs???

This is more expensive by comparison for them to what it was. Handicaps have always made techs cheaper for the AI with harder handicap settings. If there is a core definition to increasing game difficulty, this is it. Look at the Vanilla files on that to confirm that for yourself. As you have pointed out, when you play a game where the AI has the same cost amount as the player (Noble should always be this) then it's a walk in the park due to the AI not having QUITE as strong an ability to strategize as the player would. Sure, the AI does have a calculatory advantage to determining the actual benefit of a tech, but that can also be misleading.

How many Eras does the AI Have To be Ahead of the player??? 3, 4, 5, ???. You keep doing this a players are going to quit playing if they feel they are going to get consistently steam rolled. SMH!

Admittedly, they quit faster when they consistently steam roll the AI. Turning down the difficulty level is the appropriate response to struggling against the AI usually, but you're a good enough player to be able to weigh in on whether the reduction they are getting is too strong or not so we've reduced the reduction in cost they get. By a lot actually. By 2/5ths of the previous reduction per difficulty level. It's going in the direction you wanted but we should be careful not to overdo it or we'll be back to the hardest levels being too easy again.

TD and WFL are the two greatest tools for ensuring this kind of balance. Playing without them and expecting the balancing efforts to pander to you is like shooting out your tyres and then complaining about how your truck handles.

Agreed. It really helps to keep players in balance with each other throughout all eras. That IS the whole point of both of them. Thus giving us a design assist that can help to keep both the Human and AI players from being so easily capable of steamrolling.

 

[raxo2222]

I've been told different stories on so many parts of this system that I'm not sure what do what to whom and when.

Last I heard about the Era modifiers it was to make it tougher on the player.

You misread then - it slows down EVERYONE, NOT JUST PLAYER, that is things in EraInfos affect everyone.

Reduced <iAIResearchPercent> to step of 3 (step was 5 per handicap):
Prince/Monarch/Emperor/Immortal/Deity/Nightmare now has this tag of 97, 94, 91, 88, 85, 79, that is techs now will be cheaper by 3/6/9/12/15/21% for AI

Why the bloody hell is the AI getting cheaper techs???

It was a thing since overhaul in V38.5
For a year AIs were getting 5/10/15/20/25/35 reduction to tech cost on Prince/Monarch/Emperor/Immortal/Deity/Nightmare.

This is more expensive by comparison for them to what it was. Handicaps have always made techs cheaper for the AI with harder handicap settings. If there is a core definition to increasing game difficulty, this is it. Look at the Vanilla files on that to confirm that for yourself. As you have pointed out, when you play a game where the AI has the same cost amount as the player (Noble should always be this) then it's a walk in the park due to the AI not having QUITE as strong an ability to strategize as the player would. Sure, the AI does have a calculatory advantage to determining the actual benefit of a tech, but that can also be misleading.

Actually research was more expensive for players before V38.5
Techs used to be more expensive for player by 5/10/15/20/50/125 percent on Prince/Monarch/Emperor/Immortal/Deity/Nightmare.

 

[strategyonly]

One thing i have noticed lately about spawning is that the "natural" resources like horses, pigs.llama, etc etc are NOT spawning, i am into late Ancient era now and yet to have some spawn?? none in the area whatsoever (pic 1)

 

[Toffer90]

10410
Reduced <iAIResearchPercent> to step of 3 (step was 5 per handicap):
Prince/Monarch/Emperor/Immortal/Deity/Nightmare now has this tag of 97, 94, 91, 88, 85, 79, that is techs now will be cheaper by 3/6/9/12/15/21% for AI

Why the bloody hell is the AI getting cheaper techs???

How many Eras does the AI Have To be Ahead of the player??? 3, 4, 5, ???. You keep doing this a players are going to quit playing if they feel they are going to get consistently steam rolled. SMH!

Raxo reduced the tech cost discount AI get from handicaps, and you still complain...

In vanilla BtS techs costs 30% more for the human player on deity than it does for the AI.

A tech that costs 100 beakers for the AI will cost 130 beakers for the deity player.​

In C2C, right now, the tech costs 15% less for the AI than it does for the human player on deity difficulty.

A tech that costs 100 beakers for the AI will cost 118 beakers for the deity player.​

C2C was closer to vanilla BtS in this regard before rev 10410.