Situation in Turkey

[luiz]

This is the Eid at the end of Haj.

Gotcha. I thought Eid was at the end of Ramadan. Maybe they have two?

Edit: nevermind, asked a Muslim colleague and he confirmed both are called Eid. They should be more creative with their holiday names!

 

[Silurian]

Gotcha. I thought Eid was at the end of Ramadan. Maybe they have two?

Edit: nevermind, asked a Muslim colleague and he confirmed both are called Eid. They should be more creative with their holiday names!

Your basically saying that they should not call festivals festivals

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eid

 

[luiz]

Your basically saying that they should not call festivals festivals

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eid

Yes I was being very serious and want them to reform the Arabic language and the names of their most important holidays to make it easier on my memory.

 

[ori]

As long as the US bears the lion's share of the military responsibilities of the alliance, then yes, our decisions should be the final decisions. After all, at its heart, NATO is a military alliance. When the other members can provide the same overall military capability the US can (proportionally speaking. It's not like I expect, say, Germany to maintain the massive navy that we maintain), then maybe they can start having a larger voice.

This attitude is destroying the alliance - the US already has more influence than others - it merely is an alliance not a vassalage though and the failure to understand the difference is what is lessening US infuence in the world right now and hurting its future. Again: allies are not vassals, if you want it another way you are lessening your influence by shoving away your allies and forcing them into opposition of your stance instead of having them mostly in your court.

Edit: oh and conflating the totally insane US military budget with that portion that is actually used to maintain NATO is a nice sport but of course not something that is ever going to even come close to convince the other NATO members to simply turn over all decision making to you. This is compounded by the fact that unlike all other alliance members who in the past actually upheld their article 5 obligations the US right now is signalling that it is not actually ready to do so in the future.

 

[Commodore]

Again: allies are not vassals,

Then stop expecting us to protect you like you are our vassal. If Germany were invaded US troops would be right there to help you fight. However, if the shoe were on the other foot, I don't believe Germany could reciprocate. Not because you wouldn't want to, but because you simply aren't capable of it because your military spending is absolutely bare bones. Yet you still feel you should have just as much influence over NATO as the US? How does that seem at all fair to you? Please tell me you can at least understand why the whole NATO thing seems very one-sided to the US. As I stated, NATO is a military alliance. And since the US commits the lion's share of military force to the alliance, when NATO starts considering military action, we are really talking about putting American lives at risk. So yeah, I think that entitles us to have more decision-making authority over what the alliance does than the other members.

I mean, I find it absolutely ridiculous that the only other members of NATO that invest any significant resources into power projection and being able to fight anywhere on the planet are the UK and France. I can say right now, the biggest issue that is fueling the US's actions and opinions towards its allies right now is that we feel very unappreciated. We feel like you all see us as nothing more than a giant mercenary army that you can use for your own protection so you don't have to risk your own soldiers' lives. We've never wavered in our commitment to our allies until recently, and how has our loyalty been rewarded? With nothing but condemnation and criticism for the better part of the last two decades.

And you say we are burning up our goodwill with our allies. Fair point. I'll admit we certainly aren't the easiest of nations to get along with. But you have to realize you are burning up your goodwill with us as well. And who knows? Maybe there will be a point where you really do need our help, and we simply aren't going to show up.

by shoving away your allies

It's not shoving them away, it's realizing what your friends are and treating them accordingly. We all have friends in our personal lives that we trust to varying degrees and that affects how we treat those friends and what we are willing to do for them. We all have friends that have proven themselves to be very trustworthy and those are the ones we go to when we are in dire need of help or need some advice. Those are the ones we confide in. For the US, the UK and France would be those friends. Then there are other friends that you really do like, but they are kinda flaky and you can't really expect much in the way of any real usefulness so they are the ones you just go out with to party occasionally. Germany, Italy, Greece, Spain, etc. are those types of friends for the US. And then you have that "friend" that you don't really like, but you hang out with them anyway because they are the only one with a car or something. Basically, you only hang out with them because they have something useful. Turkey is that "friend" for the US, and that useful thing is their location.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Then stop expecting us to protect you like you are our vassal. If Germany were invaded US troops would be right there to help you fight. However, if the shoe were on the other foot, I don't believe Germany could reciprocate. Not because you wouldn't want to, but because you simply aren't capable of it because your military spending is absolutely bare bones. Yet you still feel you should have just as much influence over NATO as the US? How does that seem at all fair to you? Please tell me you can at least understand why the whole NATO thing seems very one-sided to the US. As I stated, NATO is a military alliance. And since the US commits the lion's share of military force to the alliance, when NATO starts considering military action, we are really talking about putting American lives at risk. So yeah, I think that entitles us to have more decision-making authority over what the alliance does than the other members.

I mean, I find it absolutely ridiculous that the only other members of NATO that invest any significant resources into power projection and being able to fight anywhere on the planet are the UK and France. I can say right now, the biggest issue that is fueling the US's actions and opinions towards its allies right now is that we feel very unappreciated. We feel like you all see us as nothing more than a giant mercenary army that you can use for your own protection so you don't have to risk your own soldiers' lives. We've never wavered in our commitment to our allies until recently, and how has our loyalty been rewarded? With nothing but condemnation and criticism for the better part of the last two decades.

And you say we are burning up our goodwill with our allies. Fair point. I'll admit we certainly aren't the easiest of nations to get along with. But you have to realize you are burning up your goodwill with us as well. And who knows? Maybe there will be a point where you really do need our help, and we simply aren't going to show up.

More likely Germany will be the one doing the invading /s
Would it help if Germany built a modest nuclear arsenal that would probably help address the military inbalance and ensure that Germany would not be invaded

You saw how thinned skinned the Germans are when it came to anything that smacks of Nazism and WW2, The Germans back down when Greece brought up the issue to use during the bailouts. I would prefer Germany to use its soft power first in a manner suitable for its superpower status. Look at France putting one over Germany with the expansion of the EU, or Germans wanting to punish Greece over financial fraud.
Plus for the first time ever Germany deployed it armed forces in NATO ground role in afghanistan and look at how that worked out for them.

With Trump gaslighting all of NATO and US traditional allies, maybe having Germany come out from it shell and lead Europe can be considered a silver lining. Especially since it looks like the US has Alzhimers.

 

[ori]

yes you have more decision making power with regards to what the alliance does - but you are not arguing that you are arguing that "what the alliance does" equals every single foreign policy decision - the iran question is not even tangentially related to NATO yet you claim that all NATO members have to follow the US decisions unquestioningly.

As for Germany not helping: no Germany will not help out if the US is attacked on US soil - it does and has in the past helped out both with limited manpower and more importantly with allowing its territory to be used in Afghanistan (followin invocation of Article 5) - and yes allowing for US bases in europe is a tremendous boon for US ability to project power way outside the NATO territory.

I am even on your side with regards to German (and others) military buildup and have forever been arguing that we cannot on the one hand decry US military policies and at the same time use US presence in europe as a reason to play pacifist. What the US does right now though is for one ensure that Germany and others will build up their military and secondly that it will be done in opposition to the US instead of in alliance with it, which is a tremendous damage to the US for the future. Destroying NATO as is the expressed policy of the current US government will weaken the US and make it (alongside others) less save in the future.

 

[dutchfire]

Reality check: list all occasions that Article 5 has been invoked

Recommended reading:
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/07/trump-nato-defense-four-percent/564911/
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/07/trump-nato-spending/565007/

 

[red_elk]

In military sense, US needs Germany more than Germany needs US. It's currently part of Pax Americana, providing its territory for military bases, airspace, logistics, etc. In the same time, Germany is able to solve all its security concerns on its own, without external help. So, it is understandable that Germany doesn't want to increase military spending or NATO funding, they simply don't have incentive to do it. It wouldn't increase Germany's safety, only give more resources to help American adventures abroad.

 

[Zelig]

I can say right now, the biggest issue that is fueling the US's actions and opinions towards its allies right now is that we feel very unappreciated.

Throwing a tantrum because you feel underappreciated isn't a thing that adults do.

 

[Sofista]

For the US, the UK and France would be those friends. Then there are other friends that you really do like, but they are kinda flaky and you can't really expect much in the way of any real usefulness so they are the ones you just go out with to party occasionally. Germany, Italy, Greece, Spain, etc. are those types of friends for the US.

According to Wikipedia, Germany with 1,300 comes right after the USA (8,475) in terms on troops in Afghanistan. Italy is third (950). The UK contributes with 650, France is... absent.

In Kosovo, the USA has 621 people. Italy is second, with 600; third Nato country is Germany with 250. UK is present with 30 men, France has gone home.

Thanks for making me check the figures. Eye-opening, truly.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I guess France is too busy with their own impeialist games in North Africa.

 

[r16]

Is there supposed to be some sense in any of that?
You once again throw in a giant wall of text that doesn't really have to do with anything and reads more like incoherent rambling than delivering anything of value, you make up non-existing people ("Mehmet Özil", his name is Mesut) and proclaim someone to have done something who didn't really do anything like that at all (the head of the federation delivering a mea culpa)...

of course there is . Sense that is . Proves ı have no clue what am talking about , certainly do not follow football or whatever and yet prove New Turkey media published stuff that had the head of the Federation delivering a mea culpa , because New Turkey has great leadership that inspired Mesut the German to see the wrongs of his ways and inspiring us infidels to follow suit . Which is a real win . More win arrives with all the support Germans throw in , yet without telling you . Possibly German , right , knowing the guy's name and his story ? You wouldn't believe the end of America is upon the world , because the whole world supports New Turkey !

Yep, and actually he spent much more than 1 billion dollars on that monument to himself. I think it was an early sign that he was sliding.

a sign that he had won and here to stay , helping his friends and designs and what not

That palace was originally 1,000 rooms.
With the special private 250 rooms added for Erdogan it totals now 1,250 rooms.

must be 1154 . That 250 is a guest house for friends and the like . Explained that the PM's people work in them . So not a fancy plaything but the head office of the country , because stuff are run from palaces in proper countries ... As such the summer palace by the sea , now building has 300 rooms so that the country willl not be left like an headless chicken in the summer . It has 120 000 tons sand shipped in to make the beaches look like a triple crescent which can be seen by the satellites and the almost racists can claim relevance .

Spoiler :

bah , one should keep a diary to remember all this crp . Lemme see , 'cause any real deal might hurt Ankara , with its glory unassailed , unchallenged , unthat , unthis and unwhatever , America moves the crosshairs . Because we evil Turks might find heart or whatever with New Turkey remaining scottfree like eternally , like on the premise of if they can why we can't , Trump plays as if America has a deep running , very smart , utterly scary economic warfare operations . South Africa is a rising economy , right , darling of the investors who had this massive amount of money after 2008 ? Pumped by the developed economies of the West so that free money could be worked with "higher interest rates" of the those growing economies ? America attacks them one by one and all the funds will flow back to America kind of thing ... So , Trump declares farms of the Whites are being stolen by Blacks . It's just a game . So that we won't find heart , America did not fail , America is not the house of some 3 pigs where the wolf comes knocking on the wall . Considering Baghdadi of ISIL rants a full 55 minutes of on how America is weak , America can not beat New Turkey , as proven by the case of Brunson . Not a word that the Shia beat them ISIL on the ground , despite whole American aircover and like higher bravery of the seperatists who like fought ISIL ...

businessmen join the fray , writing letters to both Goverments that Rubicon should not be crossed . How can they dare , Romans are hated in Ankara , don't you people read anything ? Rubicon is a thing ı learned from some novel , 1985ish , war in the Middle East , Syria attacks Israel , Kaddafi is an idiot and the Libyan nuke Exocet goes critical when shot down by a Sidewinder , which clears good Israelis to nuke every Arab capital so America sends in the Tomcats . Heavily laden with Phoenixes which they must save to hit Israelis sneaking low , one kills a Kfir but loses sight of another and gets shot down , some crazy Russian Commie has sent nuke armed Scuds and some Kfir strike on the Damascus Airfield , makes the warhead , you now know , go critical . Stupid Arabs get what they asked for , without a single mark of blame on part of the Israelis . Oh , entirely wondering what the hell this is all about ? You just read the reason why the USN was forced by Dick Cheney to choose the subpar Hornet over the F-14E in the pipeline and give up Air Superiority mission . Extends so far and so deep that out of Millennial Christian Fundamentalist conspiracy mindset , even the museum pieces of Tomcats are utterly butchered internally . So that evil Iranians can not steal and smuggle and not Chinese clone the said , 'cause Iranians once defeated the Babylonians and saved certain people , namely the Jews . Yeah , not because turbofans are tough now that they could always import Flanker engines from Russia , but F-14 would be so much [extra] trouble the Iranians have gone and cloned the F-5F . Which is entirely passable as a trainer . And vector of smart weapons in a relaxed environment , like bombing seperatists inside Iran without USAF cover .



oh my , they even offer collaboration with New Turkey , you know , because any real state would archivise the entire F-20 proposal and the like . Iran found twin tailing the "Blue Angels" Tiger hard (Azaraksh for those who want to search) , they would stick to single with MiG-29 engined single they were planning to do , but all those Flight Computers just do not write themselves . Of course can not happen , does Tahran not hear of the glorious news that the Prime Ministerial Office controlled archives and the PM can not allow anything controlled by other offices and of the 524 experts that used to work therein , a full 300 has been posted elsewhere , out of archives ? Actually like appeared in the newspapers a full day or two before , now that America does not think it would happen but it's so fun . No doubt there will be no more bellyaching when the PM picks any decree of Ottoman Sultans and give it away as a present to anyone he fancies . New Turkey , despite the millions of artists it has would fail to write such , when the titles of the like of Kanuni would fill half the page without much of an effort . Oh , one must not mock New Turkey , their South Korean designed tank is in a tour of 6 Asian countries , but not to hurt the prospects of sales , people do not tell in which country it is in now . Yeah , ı agree it gotta be Qatar .


even more to the point , and shows there are people who read , the friend of the secretary of foreign stuff in the palace cabinet , the former Foreign Minister of Germany , Sigmar Gabriel by the name , says the nationalists of New Turkey , if cornered , will make an atom bomb . One must immediately remember the Luftwaffe is in a poor shape , unfit for peer affairs like if New Turkey lost an election and all those dinky toy F-16s and absolutely-not-Fleet-Standart-71 Phantoms would be peer stuff if under the command of Republic once again . At most they could have a couple of terrorfliegers of Typhoons with long range missiles . Would New Turkey nuke places after loosing an election ? Ask Gabriel , he would know it better than an idiot .

so out of the Liberal echo-chamber of the US , but proof of stuff . Trump will not fall , because he like used State funding to silence extra-marital affairs or he lied . Now that he can not do anything wrong , as long as he wins , he has the upper hand . We have seen it before , there are the weak who think the Law should be on the side of the Righteous and there are those who change the Laws as it fits . Just like people hate it when suggesting that there ain't much competition between Trump and all the "old-school" leaders of the West , even when they throw candies at each other , just like everybody loves New Turkey , this in the end , is about how Right means nothing when shadowed by Might .

ı know an idiot , but there are like 200 millions in one single country who think they have been blessed as the exception to the rule . Think football fed stuff a fake ? Doesn't matter one bit , nobody has ever loved the Republic , nor those who favour it .

 

[Commodore]

According to Wikipedia, Germany with 1,300 comes right after the USA (8,475) in terms on troops in Afghanistan. Italy is third (950). The UK contributes with 650, France is... absent.

It's not just about troop numbers, it's how active those troops are. I'll use the Italians as an example. When I was there as a contractor, I was on a joint US/Italian base. The airfield belonged to the US, while the Italians were to act as the ground force that was supposed to be out there patrolling and doing all the counter-insurgency work in the AO since it was technically their area of responsibility. Well, eventually a few companies of US Army had to be brought in and the Italian commander was reprimanded because he refused to conduct patrols because he didn't want to risk the lives of his soldiers. Okay fine. But if he doesn't want to risk his soldiers, then what are they even doing there? Let's just say any Americans on that base more or less lost all respect for the Italians as soldiers at that point.

And while France may be out of Afghanistan now, but when they were there they, proportionally, had an operational tempo comparable to ours. Same with the UK. I didn't have any experience with the Germans over there though so I don't know how active they were.

 

[FriendlyFire]

It's not just about troop numbers, it's how active those troops are. I'll use the Italians as an example. When I was there as a contractor, I was on a joint US/Italian base. The airfield belonged to the US, while the Italians were to act as the ground force that was supposed to be out there patrolling and doing all the counter-insurgency work in the AO since it was technically their area of responsibility. Well, eventually a few companies of US Army had to be brought in and the Italian commander was reprimanded because he refused to conduct patrols because he didn't want to risk the lives of his soldiers. Okay fine. But if he doesn't want to risk his soldiers, then what are they even doing there? Let's just say any Americans on that base more or less lost all respect for the Italians as soldiers at that point.

And while France may be out of Afghanistan now, but when they were there they, proportionally, had an operational tempo comparable to ours. Same with the UK. I didn't have any experience with the Germans over there though so I don't know how active they were.

Italians may well have been under "political" orders not to incur casualties, generally casualties places pubic backlash which then leads to eventual reduction, move to a safer sector or doing just do non-combat jobs for the Italians
Especially since the Italians were burnt over the entire Iraq deployment where they were expecting to be doing peacekeeping and not fighting a counter insurgency in a war started for false reasons and sold as already won

Also its the Italians, you should just be happy they didnt change sides again

EDIT: I suspect most of the EU countries are probably eager to exit Afghanistan, between the corrupt government, drug trade and constant set backs the US is probably also looking for any viable solution.

 

[innonimatu]

They certainly were. This NATO thing in most of Europe is just make pretend. Officers get plush jobs, politicians appease the US playing obedient poodles, and the rest live out their lives knowing that the smallish military spending will be enough to keep the only potential enemy (the US!) at bay as an ally. Is its fear of the US that keeps NATO in existence. Better to be a subject ally that a target.

Of course, that calculation changes if serious expenditures were to be required, serious contribution to the US' imperial wars around the world. Waging war on Afghanistan under the excuse that some saudi terrorists attacked the US may be popular that side of the Atlantic, won't ever be here: people can figure out that the wrong country was targeted. The US's motives to be in Afghanistan then or now in 2018, seem very removed from the collective defense of the North Atlantic.

Demand real contributions to the imperial wars and european countries will shop around for different allies. Turkey is warning about it. Others will consider leaving after they do, gradually east to west as geography dictates. Pity the canadians who are too close...

 

[Zkribbler]

Then stop expecting us to protect you like you are our vassal. If Germany were invaded US troops would be right there to help you fight. However, if the shoe were on the other foot, I don't believe Germany could reciprocate.

You kinda missed that whole War in Afghanistan thing following the 9/11 attack, didn't you?

As for being "right there to protect them," Trump is the only NATO leader ever to state maybe we won't honor or treaty obligation.

 

[Sofista]

Also its the Italians, you should just be happy they didnt change sides again

On behalf of the people and the republic of Italy, I prostrate myself and humbly apologize for, hm, either refusing to do the Kaiser's bidding or at long last abandoning Nazi Germany's side.

(about Italian soldiers' efficiency, I can't really respond to individual experiences, but as a general rule, I'd say: next time, just say we're not needed, I grant you we won't insist)

 

[Commodore]

I suspect most of the EU countries are probably eager to exit Afghanistan, between the corrupt government, drug trade and constant set backs the US is probably also looking for any viable solution.

Yeah, we're just going to hand the country back to the Taliban.

 

[innonimatu]

Seeing as the Taliban are your creation (you just had to destroy the Afghan government back in the 80s, dangerous commies who let women work and all that), can you claim "mission accomplished" again?

Zbigniew Brzezinski defeated two superpowers with his strategy for Afghanistan...