So what is really going on in Iraq?

[Neomega]

I disagree. EVERY intelligence agency (to include US, GB, France, Germany, Russia, Egypt, etc.) thought Saddam had WMD. When that many intel people tell you something you tend to believe it (or at least I used to). Obviously they were wrong.

Once again, foolishly pointing to incompetence as some sort of logical reason.
Seriously, is this how you justify mistakes, "but my leaders are stupid, so they will do dumb stuff... uh... SUPPORT OUR TROOPS"

All those smart people, privvy to all sorts of "top secret info", pushing papers for decades, so wrong.


Somehow, a buch of dirty hippies, liberal activists, all 30 Iraqis sent by the CIA, and former weapons inspector Scott Ritter were smarter than the worlds top intelligence agencies. Not everyone thought Saddam had them, just the people with agendas.

As far as 'mission accomplished', you'll recall that quote came from the sailors of a Navy vessel whose mission was accomplished. Bush just picked up on it. Additionally, the foolish planners thought we could start withdrawing 50K military personnel every month after the end of the war. The was more obviously wrong in forsight, but not a lie.

And once again, plenty of people were saying, "the war is not over", but they were being called defeatist, anti-American.... uh... PEOPLE ARE DYING! YOU ARE AIDING THE TERRORISTS!"

Don't rewrite history. Monday morning quarterbacking is always accurate.

NeoCon Spin: "Uh.. This was never about WMD's, it was about removing a brutal dictator from office"

Hows that for re-writing history. Such short memories for Bush apologists. They forget themselves opening their big mouths and loudly pronouncing how embarrassed liberals* would be when we found out there were massive stockpiles of WMD's

*New bushist definition of liberal, "anyone who disagrees with anything the Bush administration does"

 

[MobBoss]

Heh, hanging out in the University district in Seattle appears to have baked Neomega to the point of paranoia and removal of rational thought.

 

[Kozmos]

Hey are you referring to "That's my Bush"? I do remember that sitcom and it was pretty funny. They had to cancel it because the cost of making each episode was astronomical.

Aye,too bad.I really liked the one with cat suicide.

 

[storealex]

If all other intelligence services thought he had WMD's, howcome they said "Give the weapons inspectors more time"?

 

[nonconformist]

I disagree. EVERY intelligence agency (to include US, GB, France, Germany, Russia, Egypt, etc.) thought Saddam had WMD. When that many intel people tell you something you tend to believe it (or at least I used to). Obviously they were wrong.

Strangely enough, I managed to figure out (and this was when I was 15, BTW) that Saddam had no WMD.

We went to war (illegal), on a premise that hadn't even been properly researched.

 

[MobBoss]

Strangely enough, I managed to figure out (and this was when I was 15, BTW) that Saddam had no WMD.

We went to war (illegal), on a premise that hadn't even been properly researched.

Uhm...how long ago was that Noncon? Remember, he had WMD in the past and even used it. So, how were you able to discern that he had no WMD? Crystal ball?

 

[nonconformist]

Uhm...how long ago was that Noncon? Remember, he had WMD in the past and even used it. So, how were you able to discern that he had no WMD? Crystal ball?

Logic, and current affairs.

 

[Neomega]

More interestingly, how were they able to say he had them?




How the $%@$% do you have proof of something that does not exist?
(I know, "you just know it in your heart", I've heard the fundamentalist tagline before.)
Faith did not bear any truth in this case.


Boy, I bet the CIA had stacks and stack and stacks of thin white bleached fiber and oil based dye, and called it "proof".

Now these geniuses are the ones throwing people away without warrant or cause except word of neighbor or less, and calling it freedom and justice. If they somehow proved something that did not exist did, I wonder how good their intelligence is that Juba al-raghed is a terrorist sympathizer. Dropping 500lb bombs on weddings and houses. Oh geez, that's right, our intelligence still sucks. Maybe if we had shown the world some respect, we could get some real spies from some of our Arab allies. Maybe we could have won a war that required intelligence and cooperation with... INTELLIGENCE AND COOPERATION!

But no, Bush wanted to try bombs and unilateralism.

I wonder how many innocents are in guantanamo bay right now, on the proof produced by 1000's of bureaucrats doing rubber stamp paper chains. Our intelligence in the arab world STINKS, and everyone knows it. Everyone has always known it. It's not even a secret in the US military, they have a hard enough time getting translators, much less spies.

 

[blackheart]

I'd strongly suggest for anyone who believes in the Iraq War so much to sign up for the Marine Corps and head on over. Once you are done serving your tour, tell me what you think of the "brilliant" tactic the officers have, called, "you be the bait, and we send in the heavy equipment to get the insurgents when you are maimed."

Even if this were true, you have a better tactic? What's supposed to happen, you go over there and overnight its a peace loving democratic country?

 

[Mano3]

Like 30,000 civilians killed, 100 of thousands wounded or maimed.

So has your "security clearance" found you those WMD's that all those "we know more than you's because we ahve secret innformation" in the neocon gang were talking about?

Please. You don't know jack. And it is obvious most of the insurgents are IRAQI's, just look at the "terrorists" being captured and jailed, less than 10% of them are foreigners, by our own numbers.

Why do you all insist on making things up? You all should really be eating humble pie, since so many of you were SO sure there would be WMD's. Don't you feel a little STUPID for being so confident about something, and being so WRONG? Isn't it about time to wake up and smell the neocon brew of lies cooking in your kitchen?


Let me repeat:

neocon = STUPID dumb know-nothing lying idiot.

They still blabber on about how confident they are about how right they are, yet they have been WRONG about EVERYTHING!

+Oil production is at an ALL-TIME low
+There are no WMD's
+Every single political paper game (constitution, voting, blah blah) has not slowed the insurgency one bit.
+Iraq's Army is not ready to take over, nor will it be any time soon.

The Iraiqs are grateful we are rebuilding everything we blew up, and the chaos we brought destroyed, but they do not want us there.

Democracy in Iraq = Muslim Fantatic government.

Rumsfeld: "We know where they (WMD's) are!"
LIE

Powell: "Here are photographs of a chemical weapons lab"
LIE

Bush: "Mission accomplished"
LIE

You don't have to be jealous of my clearance. If I could tell you and the world some of the facts I know, I would, but I can't and I don't feel like going to jail right now. Check back in 20 years when most of this stuff is unclassified. Many of your questions will be answered. Be careful though, you might have to eat a big hunk of crow...

 

[Mano3]

For those that may doubt my credentials...

I'm a MSgt in the USAF and have been in almost 20 years. Right now, I'm the Director of the Aerospace Historian Contingency Course. I'm responsible for instructing ALL USAF Historians on how to do their job and survive in the field. Like all other historians, I posess a Top Secret/SCII clearance and have access to ALL records and work directly for the combatant commander when in the field.

What do USAF Historians do you may ask? Well, it's our job to record and preserve what goes on during any contingency to ensure credit is given to where credit is due. We operate as a non-biased entity (sort-of like an IG) and our reports go directly to our supporting MAJCOM and to the Pentagon.

PS: I have a BA in Military History, an MA in World History and have been teaching historography and aerospace history for over 5 years now. I work inside the USAF Historical Research Agency, which is the respository of ALL USAF documentation. The building is basically a huge vault, chock-full-o' classified stuff. It is a dream job for a historian. Not trying to toot my horn, but to let folks know that I'm for real.

 

[blackheart]

Um yea Mano3... I really don't believe people who say they have top credentials on the internet unless they have something to back it up with. Hell, I could be the director of a high level think tank responsible for all the world's economic decisions. Would you believe it?

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

Originally Posted by Neomega
I'd strongly suggest for anyone who believes in the Iraq War so much to sign up for the Marine Corps and head on over.

Well, I'm not in the Marine Corps, but even though I was supposed to go to a year long military school in summer '02, I volunteered to stay in the MIddle East for another year in the hope that we would remove the evil bastard named Saddam. I believed in the concept of the Iraq War LONG before President Bush was elected.

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

Strangely enough, I managed to figure out (and this was when I was 15, BTW) that Saddam had no WMD.

We went to war (illegal), on a premise that hadn't even been properly researched.

No offense, but you are basing this on stuff you read in the news. I 'know' my football team is making a bad play all the time, but I'm not a pro and don't understand why they make the calls they do. Saddam was the master of deception and definately had the intelligence community fooled into thinking he had more capability than he did. They all believed it; one of the French intel officers I served with in Afghanistan was 100% sure he had them, though he thought going to war over it was stupid. Saddam's own generals thought he had WMD.

 

[Neomega]

For those that may doubt my credentials...

I'm a MSgt in the USAF and have been in almost 20 years. Right now, I'm the Director of the Aerospace Historian Contingency Course. I'm responsible for instructing ALL USAF Historians on how to do their job and survive in the field. Like all other historians, I posess a Top Secret/SCII clearance and have access to ALL records and work directly for the combatant commander when in the field.

What do USAF Historians do you may ask? Well, it's our job to record and preserve what goes on during any contingency to ensure credit is given to where credit is due. We operate as a non-biased entity (sort-of like an IG) and our reports go directly to our supporting MAJCOM and to the Pentagon.

PS: I have a BA in Military History, an MA in World History and have been teaching historography and aerospace history for over 5 years now. I work inside the USAF Historical Research Agency, which is the respository of ALL USAF documentation. The building is basically a huge vault, chock-full-o' classified stuff. It is a dream job for a historian. Not trying to toot my horn, but to let folks know that I'm for real.

Wow, just as I figured, a bureaucrat. Lots of thin white bleached fiber and oil based dye.

What is your "top secret" documents going to tell you, if your intelligence is faulty? Jack squat.

Many of your questions will be answered

Did I ask any questions? I don't have questions, I have raw facts, facts that can't be line vetoed by an aggressive world domination neocon agenda. What is your clearance going to do about the facts that:

+Oil production is at an ALL-TIME low
+There are no WMD's
+Every single political paper game (constitution, voting, blah blah) has not slowed the insurgency one bit.
+Iraq's Army is not ready to take over, nor will it be any time soon.

What pictures do you have that are more conclusive than powell claiming that chemical plants were WMD factories?

You job has nothing to do with the conversation at hand. You are being a blowhard.

Lots of people have said they "knew" more about the situation. Obviously, they didn't. It doesn't take a genius to figure out people do not like foreign armies in their country, since you are a "historian", maybe you should look up the history of people welcoming foreign armies intheir countries. And then re-evaluate, "what you know".

 

[BasketCase]

What is your clearance going to do about the facts that:

+Oil production is at an ALL-TIME low
+There are no WMD's
+Every single political paper game (constitution, voting, blah blah) has not slowed the insurgency one bit.
+Iraq's Army is not ready to take over, nor will it be any time soon.

I dispute the first three. A lot of people who have been there and seen it say the opposite. Since other people who have been there are saying what you're saying, my conclusion is that we can't know.

I have no opinion on the fourth due to insufficient info.

 

[Neomega]

I dispute the first three. A lot of people who have been there and seen it say the opposite. Since other people who have been there are saying what you're saying, my conclusion is that we can't know.

I have no opinion on the fourth due to insufficient info.

You dispute the first 3!!!??
Time for an education, come sit at the lap of unca NeOmega


Look at the numbers.

So some marine who fought in Falujah knows more about how much oil has been produced than the Iraqi oil minister?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4574954.stm
There, I did your research for you.

Heres an administration idiot saying it would be triple in 3-4 years in 2003... (geez, wrong again guys)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-10-23-evans-iraq-oil_x.htm

And look who is in charge now... that's right, Administration accused man of being Iranian double agent himself, Chalabi, that's right, your Bush administration bordered on calling him an Iranian spy, now he's in charge of Iraq's wealth infrastructure... fantastic... maybe we can just get a horse race commisioner to run the show:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/30/AR2005123001307.html


No WMD's - Well, I certainly believe my president... what are you, a terrorist... support our president, he already called it faulty intelligence, and no WMD's were found... so...

and the insurgency... has anything that the administration claimed was going to stop it, stop it?

Nope, American casualties remain steady, (actually still steadily rising in avg per month http://icasualties.org/oif/

and Iraqi casualties, police and security forces, steadily RISING
http://icasualties.org/oif/IraqiDeaths.aspx

I don't have to travel to Iraq to read english and statistics.

4th: the Iraqi forces taking over... they are divided, and I have posted links to show why. I have watched this war with an eagle eye since DAY 1, I have not relented, and I will tell you, that army is shiite and kurdish, and it is not solvent, and it will not be able to keep itself together once the Americans leave.

 

[Mano3]

Um yea Mano3... I really don't believe people who say they have top credentials on the internet unless they have something to back it up with. Hell, I could be the director of a high level think tank responsible for all the world's economic decisions. Would you believe it?

I understand. The only thing I can say is that if you're ever on Maxwell AFB, stop by and see me in my office the Ira C. Eaker College for Professional Development.

 

[FriendlyFire]

I dispute the first three. A lot of people who have been there and seen it say the opposite. Since other people who have been there are saying what you're saying, my conclusion is that we can't know.

I have no opinion on the fourth due to insufficient info.

Of course on some other annon military forumn where personal are allowed to post without pressure you do get a mixed picture. (Guys posting from in threatre)

 

[Mano3]

Why do liberals always have to answer in an arrogant tone? Anyway...

What is your "top secret" documents going to tell you, if your intelligence is faulty? Jack squat.

I read what's reported in the field from source documents and then make and write conclusions based on those documents.

What is your clearance going to do about the facts that:

+Oil production is at an ALL-TIME low

I agree with you here, but I feel that's it's an unfortunate aftershock from the war.

+There are no WMD's

Yes, there are, but if I told you where they are, I'd have to kill you.

+Every single political paper game (constitution, voting, blah blah) has not slowed the insurgency one bit.

You're right! The only thing that will slow the insurgency is firepower and a more positive media.

+Iraq's Army is not ready to take over, nor will it be any time soon.

True, but it will be. It's not my position to estimate when.

You job has nothing to do with the conversation at hand. You are being a blowhard.

You're dead wrong here. The folks I train are directly involved in information gathering in the field, thus I am very much up-to-speed on the subject.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out people do not like foreign armies in their country, since you are a "historian", maybe you should look up the history of people welcoming foreign armies intheir countries. And then re-evaluate, "what you know".

Yes, most countries don't like foreign armies in their countries, but you can't possibly say that Iraq is not better off without Saddam Hussein.

Speaking of "Your job has nothing to do with the conversation at hand," what exactly do YOU do that involves more than just being an angry person?